Really, Army? Really? This is Army Strong?

[Lonestar]

My point is, it destroys the myth of the US Marine Corps being awesome, innovative, and "America's Fire Brigade".

Historically, USMC apologists have pointed to the Marine Corps long tradition from 1900-1939 of "filibustering" in various Caribbean and Central American countries, as proof that they have the institutional knowledge and doctrine to execute the role of America's Fire Brigade, etc.

Sadly, that doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny; as shown above by the article; e.g. that in 136 separate instances, the US Navy landed groups of it's sailors ashore as literal naval infantry in actions ranging up to brigade level against major enemy forces. And this was done all without the special training that the US Marine Corps prides itself on.

They literally just picked landing parties from ships' contigents and formed them into the required units of action and sent them ashore, using US Army training manuals and doctrine, which kind of destroys the Marine claim of superior training and doctrine, when a bunch of SAILORS can do just as good.

Get rid of the Jarheads!

[Al B. Sure!]

What you fail to post is how people who replied to him completely destroyed his nonsense.

I hardly think so. The article you quoted specifically mentions "In this region, there were at least 136 instances of individual groups of bluejackets operating ashore as infantry (from squad to brigade level) between 1901 and May 1929. Operations ranged from election security, pacification, peacekeeping, land convoy escort, protection of roads and railroads, occupation, and guard duty to large-scale major combat operations against regular Army forces."


Problem one is this:
Quote:
This count includes instances of landing parties relieving each other during the same operation

So the count is already inflated to a degree .


Second is that the actions specified, if you went to the footnote and then to the link show this nifty chart:
Quote:
Killed in Action Died of Wounds Wounded in Action Totals
Marine Corps Officers 7 2 14 23
Naval Officers - - 3 3
Bluejackets 17 2 51 70
Marine Corps Enlisted Men 47 12 139 198
Totals 71 16 207 294

This total also does not include casualties from service with the Haitian Constabulary in which a significant number of Marines participated but I've never seen any evidence that Naval Infantry was employed for this.

Overall this chart would seem to indicate that the Marines were either a) Bad at their job (which given the were considered the only fighting ready formation of AMerican troops at the commencement of American involvement in WWI is hard to think) or b) Represented the contingent which had the largest share and most dangerous naval landing missions

So in other words...the Marines were still the ones kicking in the door and the Naval Infantry backed them up more often than not.

[Lonestar]

More Marine apologism. Fold 'em into the Army!

[Al B. Sure!]

I have nothing to say to you.

[Lonestar]

I have nothing to say to you.

You're just angry because you can't think of a real reason to maintain the Marines as a seperate entity.

[Al B. Sure!]

I think the original article that motivated this thread is enough reason to maintain the Marine Corps as a separate branch of service.

The Marine Corps doesn't lower standards or make things easy. "We don't promise you a rose garden smartphone and no one yelling at you"

[Lonestar]

I think the original article that motivated this thread is enough reason to maintain the Marine Corps as a separate branch of service.

Story

The Top Ten Basic Training Changes
July 20, 2010
Army News Service|by Kelly Schloesser

This year, Basic Combat Training has gone through a transformation. Here are some of the changes you'll see in new Basic and OSUT courses, as of 1 July 2010:

1. BCT has become more challenging...not "softer." BCT has been extended from nine weeks to 10. The Warrior Tasks and Battle Drills (WTBD) have been refined, and are now geared toward training fewer and more relevant tasks well. These tasks and battle drills correspond with the current operating environment, and we are using training that is geared toward the generation of Soldiers entering our Army during this time of war...and those must be adapted to all the Occupational Specialties. (Find the WTBD on the, Army Training Network)

2. Rifle Marksmanship is more extensive, with more hours on the range, more bullets fired, and Soldiers using both Basic and Advanced techniques. Soldiers now fire 500 rounds (750 for infantry) during basic, and also have to "certify" as part of the Combat Field Fire phase based on the new Rifle Marksmanship Strategy. While all BCT Soldiers fire "slick" (no equipment) through qualification tables (BRM) to allow for familiarity with the weapon, equipment is worn during the difficult and combat-related Advanced Rifle Marksmanship (ARM) period.

3. Combatives are more relevant...and tougher! New instruction has been added which teaches Soldiers to fight from their feet, not wrestle and grip on the ground. Soldiers now attend 22 hours of instruction, which is double the previous requirement at BCT. Additional techniques - wearing full kit - have been added that is more relevant to what Soldiers might be asked to do in a combat situation.

4. Most up-to-date medical training in Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC) and Combat Lifesaver (CLS). Medical experts have taken combat lessons and updated the first aid training Soldiers receive. There's no longer an IV "stick. Why? Because doctors say it's counterproductive on the battlefield, and useless for treating heat injuries. New techniques for preventing heat injuries before they happen are now taught.

5. Physical Training is standardized, with scientifically proven techniques that improve conditioning and help prevent injuries. Those returning from combat say "drop the long runs, the repetitive sets of pushups and sit-ups, and volleyball games; instead focus on training the right muscles and energy systems needed in the fight! Prepare your body for walking patrol with SAPI and equipment or hauling your injured buddy out of harm's way!" FM 22-20 has been replaced with TC 3.22-20, and that applies to Soldiers in Basic Combat Training and the entire Army (and, you can get this Training Circular as an app starting in August)!

6. No more bayonet assault course against rubber tires...but lots more pugil and combatives against a thinking opponent. The bayonet assault course has been a staple of bayonet training since WWI. But that's when bayonets were prevalent on the battlefield! The last time the US had a bayonet assault was in 1951, and the rifle we now use in combat isn't meant for bayonet charges. Now, Soldiers will see more pugil drills in pits and on obstacle courses. This, combined with additional hours in combatives, will "warriorize" our Soldiers.

7. Expanded Values and Culture Training. Soldiers will still receive instruction in the Seven Army Values, but that instruction will focus on applying those values in combat, in garrison, and during off-duty time. That's to build a better Soldier...and a better citizen! And all Soldiers will now be issued a The Army Soldier's "Blue Book" (also available as an iPhone or Droid app) that links our present-day Soldier to his predecessors, and describes our professional requirements.

8. We're treating the Soldier as a "Tactical Athlete". The Surgeon General of the Army will begin supplementing initial training units with physical therapists and athletic trainers to prevent injuries and ensure better conditioning. Additionally, we're instituting the "Soldier Fueling" initiative, to teach and enable Soldiers to develop a nutritional lifestyle to counter our societal challenges.

9. We've instituted Comprehensive Soldier Fitness (CSF). Every Drill Sergeant has received Resiliency Training, and all new Soldiers take the Global Assessment Tool upon entering Basic. Additionally, all AIT Platoon Sergeants receive 10 days of resiliency training.

10. We're connected to Social Media, and on web pages. IMT does fall under TRADOC, but no decision is made without Soldiers input. Visit our social media sites and tell us what you think. We'll listen!

In fact it doesn't look like what the original article was saying at all!(ie the blue book would be available as an App on a smartphone, the smartphone woudln't be issued)

But still no running around with sharp knives attached to your rifles. Oh noes!

[Asher]

Sounds to me like you should give up on the Marines and get a real job.

[Al B. Sure!]

BCT has been extended from nine weeks to 10.

Marine recruit training is 13 weeks; OCS is 10 weeks.

New instruction has been added which teaches Soldiers to fight from their feet, not wrestle and grip on the ground. Soldiers now attend 22 hours of instruction, which is double the previous requirement at BCT. Additional techniques - wearing full kit - have been added that is more relevant to what Soldiers might be asked to do in a combat situation.

Hmm... kind of like MCMAP?!

Those returning from combat say "drop the long runs, the repetitive sets of pushups and sit-ups, and volleyball games; instead focus on training the right muscles and energy systems needed in the fight! Prepare your body for walking patrol with SAPI and equipment or hauling your injured buddy out of harm's way!" FM 22-20 has been replaced with TC 3.22-20, and that applies to Soldiers in Basic Combat Training and the entire Army (and, you can get this Training Circular as an app starting in August)!

One, what the **** do they mean by volleyball games? Two, kind of like functional fitness which the Marines have had for years... Next, the Army is going to be having a CFT!


Maybe the Army should be called Marine Corps Junior but with all the people that don't make the cut.

[C0ckney]

maybe you should try joining the army then...

[Lonestar]

I also think he's making a misleading statement by saying that Marine basic is 13 weeks. IIRC, basic is half that and "Rifleman" school is another 7.


RAR EVERY JARHEAD A RIFLESMANS.

[Dinner]

No foot lockers, Oerdin? I'm curious now. How do you store things like rifle cleaning kit, hygiene kit, PT clothes, and 782 gear (I think in the army it's TA-50?)? We always had so much random crap that we needed the storage space.

You get a Wall locker next to your bed which is kind of like a big lockable closet.

[Kitschum]

Marines are basically the most overrated service, and most redundant one. To me it's amazing that someone thought it would be a good idea to make a second army and a second(even third!) air force out of them.

So it's like the Waffen SS of the USA...

[Al B. Sure!]

So it's like the Waffen SS of the USA...

Same helmet at least

[Wiglaf]

Just called a friend doing Marine OCS. He confirmed it takes a real ****** to get a stress fracture.