Poverty creates large IQ differences even between groups of the same ethnicity.

[Hauldren Collider]

Yes, that is what I meant by innate.

[KrazyHorse]

I meant, how correlated is IQ with innate intelligence? I understand that this isn't as useful as a predictor of economic success.

WTF are you talking about, "innate intelligence"?

Are you talking about "that part of IQ which is genetically inheritable" (even such a statement is quite ill-defined)?

[Maniac]

reversing this obvious causation is a really academic and fancy way of sticking your head up your own ass.

The causation exists in both directions.

So... if you're denying the commonly accepted facts that nutrition and access to education influence IQ scores, you're agreeing with everything Heraclitus is saying then?

Perhaps the most dramatic example is the Northern Irish. Even though they come from the same ethnic group, Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants.

Link?

They're at the bottom of the page I linked to. However some of the examples seem a little outdated. For instance the article claims that Walloons score better on IQ than Flemish, despite currently Flanders being the dominant half of the country. However if you look at the source, you see the article links to an article written by Raven in 1989. And who knows that article linked to a ten year old study. I can imagine that 30 years ago the example was in fact true, as the transition of wealth to Flanders was still ongoing.

However, that doesn't really matter. This thread was meant as a troll. And it has resulted in yet another hilarious quote:

The IQs of children of Black parents with a high IQ regress to a lower mean than children of White parents with the same IQ.

[Heraclitus]

Wait wait wait Manianc when did I deny the importance of environmental factors? I keep mentioning again and again parasite loads as well as malnutrition. The case for education increasing adult IQ is weak though. However, in the Western world these factors should be minimal, a few IQ points not something on the order of a stdv.

However, that doesn't really matter. This thread was meant as a troll. And it has resulted in yet another hilarious quote:

The IQs of children of Black parents with a high IQ regress to a lower mean than children of White parents with the same IQ.

Why would this be hilarious?

[RGBVideo]

The causation exists in both directions.

yes, making stuff up as the argument progresses is a great way to have honest and forward-looking debate. yes, this is how you get people to argue with you seriously.

So... if you're denying the commonly accepted facts that nutrition

you're dodging everything i have written so far. most probably you skimmed the thread over or didn't understood what i wrote.

and access to education influence IQ scores

yes, education is how you change your IQ "scores". yes, that's how it works.

you're agreeing with everything Heraclitus is saying then?

(1) strawman
(2) guilt by association
(3) changing the subject

This thread was meant as a troll.

this sort of makes sense if you admit every single post of yours in this thread is a troll post trying to satirize politically motivated pseudo-science.

[RGBVideo]

Wait wait wait Manianc when did I deny the importance of environmental factors?

environmental factors do not change genetic inheritance. there are countless examples of immigrant populations getting good environmental factors handed over to them without any sort of notable IQ change of the population. it's essentially a gigantic red herring to sidetrack the discussion over the same old nature/nurture-brouhaha.

[Heraclitus]

environmental factors do not change genetic inheritance. there are countless examples of immigrant populations getting good environmental factors handed over to them without any sort of notable IQ change of the population. it's essentially a gigantic red herring to sidetrack the discussion over the same old nature/nurture-brouhaha.

Ah I see Maniac is trying to suggest that the gaps can be eliminated by for example integrating NAMs more, providing them better health care and education? This is folly. Like I said environmental factors could only possibly account for a few points of the discrepancy and even that would be mostly the artifact of NAMs born in less developed countries not any born in the Western world.

[Maniac]

yes, making stuff up as the argument progresses is a great way to have honest and forward-looking debate. yes, this is how you get people to argue with you seriously.

Where did I make stuff up as the argument progresses?

"Wealth has a causal effect on IQ." is a subset of "Wealth has a causal effect on IQ, and IQ has a causal effect on wealth." I never said IQ doesn't have a causal effect on an individual's wealth.

you're dodging everything i have written so far. most probably you skimmed the thread over or didn't understood what i wrote.

What exactly do you expect me to reply to?

extreme malnutrition and the related brain damage does not affect your genetic heritage. even well-fed stupid populations stay poor, and even poorly-fed intelligent populations turn quickly rich. if you are so extremely poorly fed that your IQ rate somehow goes permanently down 10 points (not likely, you'll be likely to die at that point), your children will still have similar IQ rate that you had before permanent brain damage.

How is this relevant? The article I linked to gives examples of peoples who have been discriminated for generations. Hence the full genetic potential would never have a chance to show.

Or wait, do you believe that is supposed to contradict the article I linked to? Because it actually supports it. Confer the examples of the same genetic group - Jews - who were considered stupid at the beginning of the 20th century, but now - while they are more integrated - are considered in fact smarter. Level of wealth/integration and all which is related to that (such as education) has a causal effect on IQ.

yes, education is how you change your IQ "scores". yes, that's how it works.

Indeed, it has a positive effect. Genes only give you a potential for somethihg. You need to use it to develop that potential. Likewise, if you have it but don't use it, you will gradually lose it. For instance the chairman of Mensa Belgium told me that your IQ score unadjusted for age drops much faster (and so also drops when adjusted for age) if you don't use the mathematical/logical/spatial/etc skills that IQ tests in your daily life.

(1) strawman
(2) guilt by association
(3) changing the subject

You're agreeing with everything Heraclitus is saying then?

this sort of makes sense if you admit every single post of yours in this thread is a troll post trying to satirize politically motivated pseudo-science.

The troll part is starting a thread fully expecting a certain someone will be unable to resist replying and making a fool of himself.

Anyway, why are you stalking me so? First the OT moderation thread and now here. Did I insult you mother once and I forgot about it? Do you look up towards me as someone to best in combat as proof of your own personal glory?

[Maniac]

20:41

The troll part is starting a thread fully expecting a certain someone will be unable to resist replying and making a fool of himself.

21:16

@Robert Plomp: Hey I sent the PM, could you please ban me for the two months?
I'm wasting too much time on poly...

Troll succesful!