SCOTUS tells Chicago to shove it.

[Darius871]

Then draw first. Jeez.

[Hauldren Collider]

Asher, if everyone had a gun, the risks of mugging someone would DRAMATICALLY increase. To the point where even most criminals would be unlikely to attempt to mug somebody. I'm not saying everyone should have a gun. I am saying that a system that makes it easier for criminals to get guns than civilians is very bad.

[Asher]

Asher, if everyone had a gun, the risks of mugging someone would DRAMATICALLY increase. To the point where even most criminals would be unlikely to attempt to mug somebody. I'm not saying everyone should have a gun. I am saying that a system that makes it easier for criminals to get guns than civilians is very bad.

But your system makes it easy for both criminals and civilians to get guns. Making it easy for civilians to get guns ultimately makes it easier for criminals to get guns.

As a result, you have a staggeringly high gun crime rate.

It's the price to pay. Darius says it's worth it.

[Darius871]

Yes, it's basic supply/demand. A huge market of legal guns means it's easier to steal/otherwise acquire legal guns and put them on the black market. The influx of supply lowers price. Lower price increases number of criminals with guns.

Any questions? It sounds like you're not even contesting this, which is good.

Of course I'm not going to contest basic economics and common sense, but you missed my DanS:

very bottom margins of the criminal element, which aren't necessarily the most violent ones.

In other words your ordinary mugger or carjacker might not get a gun he otherwise would have, but at the same time he's considerably less likely to have used said gun anyway than a mid-level drug trafficker with fierce competitors or some psycho-postal guy. And lo and behold, these two more dangerous categories have considerably more financial means at their disposal to buy guns from even a more constrained market. Or something.

More importantly, draw first.

[Hauldren Collider]

It's not actually much higher than canada's in the states with the least gun control and most guns (for instance Texas). Also consider that the rate of gun crimes, iirc, isn't higher by a greater margin over canada's rate than the rate of all other crimes in the US.

crosspost

[Asher]

It's not actually much higher than canada's in the states with the least gun control and most guns (for instance Texas). Also consider that the rate of gun crimes, iirc, isn't higher than a greater margin over canada's rate than the rate of all other crimes in the US.

crosspost

Where do your get your stats?

I find this interesting:
~70% of the total murders in the US are committed with guns. It's ~30% in Canada.

Guns are far more lethal than just about every other weapon available.

[Hauldren Collider]

History book that I had to give back to school by the end of the year, so yes I must concede that at the moment I cannot cite that

but the statistics should be somewhere on the internet

note the "iirc"

[Asher]

In 2005, 75% of the 10,100 homicides committed using firearms in the United States were committed using handguns, compared to 4% with rifles, 5% with shotguns, and the rest with a type of firearm not specified.[37] Due to the lethal potential that a gun brings to a situation, the likelihood that a death will result is significantly increased when either the victim or the attacker has a firearm.[38] The mortality rate for gunshot wounds to the heart is 84%, compared to 30% for people who sustain stab wounds to the heart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

[Asher]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

Texas has 3.93 / 100,000 gun homicides every year

Canada's is 0.59 / 100,000 (or 0.3, depending on the source)

That is far more than "not much higher", no?

[Darius871]

History book that I had to give back to school by the end of the year, so yes I must concede that at the moment I cannot cite that

but the statistics should be somewhere on the internet

note the "iirc"

FWIW John Lott's study is probably the most comprehensive, although the statistics are somewhat dated so I'd recommend the updated third edition.

Frankly state-to-state comparison is so much more reliable than the country-to-country comparison predicating this discussion that I'm surprised we're engaging in it. I don't care what works for a bunch of wimpy hosers because the fact is our culture happens to be far more violent, morally depraved, immature, hateful, and factionalized than any other Western nation. The notion that we'd be considerably more violent than them with or without rigorous gun control doesn't seem the least bit implausible to me. What matters most is what differences there are between the results of different state laws within this despicably violent culture, and the jury has been out on those statistics for some time now.

[Hauldren Collider]

...I don't think American culture is all that violent... I think canada just doesn't have as much poverty

[Kuciwalker]

Asher, if everyone had a gun, the risks of mugging someone would DRAMATICALLY increase. To the point where even most criminals would be unlikely to attempt to mug somebody. I'm not saying everyone should have a gun. I am saying that a system that makes it easier for criminals to get guns than civilians is very bad.

You have very little evidence that universal gun ownership would result in a net reduction in violent crime.

You have plausible explanations for why it would, but those are a dime a dozen.

[Darius871]

...I don't think American culture is all that violent... I think canada just doesn't have as much poverty

Sure, I'll throw that classic in too, why the hell not?

Then again, there's the fact that violent culture is most prevalent and perpetuated in the poorest neighborhoods, causing crime which in turn keeps them poor, sparking a vicious cycle where you don't know whether the chicken or the egg came first. Either way the point is a huge chunk of our society's critically ****ed and would find ways to keep it up even if you tell them those guns they're using technically aren't legal anymore.


**** that noise, I just want to shoot the hell out of stuff.

[Asher]

...I don't think American culture is all that violent... I think canada just doesn't have as much poverty

Comparing poverty levels in both countries is even more fruitless than comparing crime rates. There's not even a standard definition of poverty level in Canada.

[Darius871]

Comparing poverty levels in both countries is even more fruitless than comparing crime rates.

And both are even more fruitless than comparing crime rates across states within the U.S.