Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

So why insist on believing in ancient religions when ancient events are poorly documented? Maybe based on faith, you can.

For the same reason you believe in Roman Emperors despite their poor documentation.

How about "people make up supernatural bull**** all the time"

Great reasoning, except that's all you and not on the documentation we do have.

[Berzerker]

Genesis 1.1:"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

"Heavens" would be everything above the Earth, ie the universe. Look up in the sky, and you see stars, right?

Heaven cant be everything above the Earth, there are waters above and below it.

The Earth would include all that is on it, right? Well, in verse 2 and then verse 6+7 and 9, we get water:

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

"And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day."

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

So, in verse 2 we hear of "the surface of the deep", which is explained as "waters" in verse 6. Then we see that some water is held in the sky(rain) and some on the ground. Then comes verse 9 along, and we see that we've got land and seas.

Where did the water come from? Your translation notwithstanding, the word "Earth" is defined as "dry land", dry land that was revealed when the waters were gathered together into Seas. And what does that say about the use of the word "create"? God didn't create the Earth, he revealed it... Before the dry land was revealed,

the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

These waters and the world they covered - biblical tehom - preceded creation. In the story God names Heaven - the firmament placed amidst the waters. Waters that were already there, above and below Heaven. And nowhere in this story do the authors say God created the waters. They go out of their way to tell us the waters were here first...

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

2the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

3and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.

4And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,

5and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.

6And God saith, `Let an expanse be in the midst of the waters, and let it be separating between waters and waters.'

7And God maketh the expanse, and it separateth between the waters which [are] under the expanse, and the waters which [are] above the expanse: and it is so.

8And God calleth to the expanse `Heavens;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day second.

9And God saith, `Let the waters under the heavens be collected unto one place, and let the dry land be seen:' and it is so.

10And God calleth to the dry land `Earth,' and to the collection of the waters He hath called `Seas;' and God seeth that [it is] good.

Young's Literal Translation - adding an s to Heaven doesn't change the fact the waters were above, below, and before Heaven or Earth appeared.

This is getting ridiculous. You know that Jesus died and rose on the third day. Everyone knows this even if they aren't Christians.

But he didn't really die, right? He's alive... So he didn't die for our sins, he took a 3 day leave of absence and was brought back. When people die, they dont come back in 3 days. And you didn't answer my question, who was Jesus talking to when he prayed?

[giblets]

The question is whether or not these 'extraordinary' claims are true. If it's true, it's not silly anymore, is it?

It would still be extraordinary.

Poor documentation relative to what? Lady Gaga's latest meal? Excuse me if I'm rather underwhelmed by your argument that ancient sources clearly must have supportive documentation to match modern ones.

So why insist on believing in ancient religions when ancient events are poorly documented? Maybe based on faith, you can.

I'm going to accept their claim, yes, unless there is evidence contrary to what they say. Arguing, "people don't rise from the dead' is begging the question.

How about "people make up supernatural bull**** all the time"

[giblets]

What are you talking about gribbler. Moses lived for 900 years, you hedonistic and sacrilegious mother****er.

The Bible says 120, and no contradictory source exists, therefore it must be true!

[Ben Kenobi]

No, I'm claiming that it's silly to make life-changing decisions based on extraordinary claims

The question is whether or not these 'extraordinary' claims are true. If it's true, it's not silly anymore, is it?

that have poor documentation when people invent extraordinary stories all the time.

Poor documentation relative to what? Lady Gaga's latest meal? Excuse me if I'm rather underwhelmed by your argument that ancient sources clearly must have supportive documentation to match modern ones.

"Well, a couple of ancient writers claimed a guy rose from the dead, and they're not contradicted by anyone else, so I'm going to accept every single thing that these ancient writers wrote.

I'm going to accept their claim, yes, unless there is evidence contrary to what they say. Arguing, "people don't rise from the dead' is begging the question. Yes, it's an extraordinary claim. I would argue that the documentation is extraordinary. I don't think this is a particularly difficult claim given the document evidence of scripture.

Now, you've got a few arguments. You've already used the 'it's a work of fiction', and evaded my point of Pilate who you do believe existed.

Two, you've also argued that you have no problem accepting the current list of emperors based on far more scanty evidence than what's there in the Gospels.

You seem to believe lies so long as they are mundane. Correct?

[Hauldren Collider]

What are you talking about gribbler. Moses lived for 900 years, you hedonistic and sacrilegious mother****er.

[giblets]

Are you saying that ancient events should be as well documented as modern events? This is a silly argument.

No, I'm claiming that it's silly to make life-changing decisions based on extraordinary claims that have poor documentation when people invent extraordinary stories all the time. "Well, a couple of ancient writers claimed a guy rose from the dead, and they're not contradicted by anyone else, so I'm going to accept every single thing that these ancient writers wrote." Wow.

[Kitschum]

Copying that, and from one of the other fragments to reconstruct the text.

Well, the Greek and Latin, with the same content, are inscribed on the same temple but on different walls.

It's a copy of sorts, but it was inscribed right after he died - in Rome, in Ankara and in other places where it has been less well preserved.

[Ben Kenobi]

the chief source of which is literally written in stone on the Monumentum Ancyranum in Ankara shortly after Augustus' death, copying the inscription on his mausoleum in Rome which has been lost.

Copying that, and from one of the other fragments to reconstruct the text. Interesting. I've found the book that I need, but I need to hope beyond hope that it's actually available.

Sometimes I really hate living here.

http://www.amazon.com/Texts-Transmission-Survey-Latin-Classics/dp/0198144563

[Ben Kenobi]

Right... look, there's more evidence for hindu gods consuming milk.

Well of course there would be.

But of course you'll keep saying "oh ancient events aren't well documented"

Are you saying that ancient events should be as well documented as modern events? This is a silly argument.

while simultaneously claiming we should believe whatever ancient documents have survived.

Without evidence to the contrary, yes we should. That's how history works, at least good history anyways. There's plenty of bad history where the facts and the documents don't matter, just the prejudices of today.

[Kitschum]

University of chicago. It's a rather important historical document.

Sure it is, but I'd have to search for the information unless, or you could ask someone from the U of Chicago if you think they know.

I linked to them because they're hosting a transcription of the Latin and Greek texts of Res Gestae Divi Augusti - some of which reconstructed from the other - the chief source of which is literally written in stone on the Monumentum Ancyranum in Ankara shortly after Augustus' death, copying the inscription on his mausoleum in Rome which has been lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumentum_Ancyranum

[Ben Kenobi]

University of chicago. It's a rather important historical document.

hmm, seems a trip to the library is in order.

[giblets]

That's a good question. Why are you so confident arguing from complete silence? The records that we do have all testify that this was a big deal. It wasn't a mundane event. Clearly something happened, why don't we have a Roman source that clearly spells out that the Christians were wrong?

I was on your side gribbler. The evidence is just not there for your position.

Right... look, there's more evidence for hindu gods consuming milk. But of course you'll keep saying "oh ancient events aren't well documented" while simultaneously claiming we should believe whatever ancient documents have survived.

Your claim that "clearly something happened" is based on the assumption that the gospels are true. If you use "clearly something happened" as evidence for the gospels then you are employing circular reasoning. If the gospels are false then nothing happened except for some rumors of someone seeing him.

[Kitschum]

They? I don't know personally.

[Ben Kenobi]

Would they also know the oldest extant copy of the Lives by Suetonius? I've been looking for that infromation for awhile, and I can't seem to find any?