Ships to Gaza incident

[Robert]

i have and they and totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. people sing pretty provocative songs at football matches for example, does that justify gunning them down?

if your argument rests on this, then you have no argument at all.

As a matter of fact, overhere in Holland we send trains with football hooligans who sing provocative songs like that (which indeed happens) back.
And if they start to try to kill policemen, the police will use force to set it's people free.

Lately we had such a situation here in Holland, where the mob attacked a couple of policemen. They killed one of those in the mob, and about everybody here in Holland agreed that the policemen were right in doing so.

i have and they and totally, completely and utterly irrelevant. people sing pretty provocative songs at football matches for example, does that justify gunning them down?

It justifies in searching the ship.
Shooting them down is only justified when it's needed to set your people free from the mob who tries to kill them.

[MOBIUS]

Dude, you really need to learn to handle people with different opinions.
It's a basic skill you need in debates.

I don't have a problem with people with different opinions - when they're not nuts!

So now you seem to finally accept that Israel were acting illegally, your get out clause is that you don't respect international law anyway...

[MOBIUS]

people sing pretty provocative songs at football matches for example

Jesus Christ! Half of the Cardiff City supporters would be banged up on terrorism charges every week if that was the case - 100% if they were playing Swansea...

[Robert]

I don't have a problem with people with different opinions - when they're not nuts!

Unfortunately of course they are all nuts, otherwise they would have agreed with you

So now you seem to finally accept that Israel were acting illegally, your get out clause is that you don't respect international law anyway...

I don't have faith in international law, still it must be there, and Israel must stick to it.
The problem with international law is that there's no independant interpretator, as with national laws. The interpretation is always a case of politics. Israel made a political decision based by their interpretation of international laws. Others disagree with that, but they're not politically in the shoes of Israel.

International law was breached when the NAVO acted against Milosevic. Fortunately they did so anyway. We all know that international law is hardly enforced. Not against Israel, not against Iraq, not against Iran and not against Hamas.

Bottom line for me is that Hamas should be removed and then a 2-states solution must be enforced where all people can live in peace.
As long as Hamas is in Gaza, I have not much problems with Israel defending it's own interests.

[C0ckney]

so singing a song makes someone a hooligan (or a violent extremist)?

and your reasoning is faulty, you're clearly trying to paint the people on the ship as the aggressors. the people on the ship were attacked, the israelis boarded the ship when they had no right to do so, at night and the people on board defended themselves. so it's nothing like a bunch of hooligans attacking the police and for you to paint it as such is disingenuous. it would be as if some football fans were walking down the street, minding their own business and the police attacked them. another good analogy is the example that wezil provided (notwithstanding your laughable response to it).

and please no more talk of martyrs, these people were on a ship delivering aid, they were 'armed' with bars and clubs and possibly knives (although even this isn't clear), i.e. things that you would normally find on a ship. my doublespeak detector is about to explode.

[Wezil]

Illegal search and detention is violence. I stop you in your car and take you to a place of my choosing against your will. Do you have a right to resist or should you just peacefully go along with my kidnapping?

If I am in the process of getting in your house to kill your family and die in the process as a martyr, without any police being available to help you, yes please kidnap me.

Okay then, you are clearly deranged. These were peace activists on a boat carrying building supplies. If this had been a boat of militants carrying weapons the Israeli act of war would have been entirely justified.

One side arrived descending on ropes from helicopters and you are arguing the people on the ship overreacted? Thanks for pulling the other one.

Yes.
Every sane person would surrender. These guys came to Gaza to die in a huge fight.
That's why it would also have happened during daylight within Israel's territory.

Great argument. If the odds are against you the only sane thing to do is give in. History disagrees.

Dissimilar situations. In general I'm not a fan of "proportional response" although I do think military attacks should be aimed at military targets and not civilians.

I am saying you have a right to resist illegal search and detention in international waters.

That's fine with me as well, but don't complain if extreme violence will be answered with proportional violence in which some people die.

Someone initiated it and someone responded. Since it happened in international waters outside of Israel's jurisdiction it is clear to most sensible people which is which.

[C0ckney]

Jesus Christ! Half of the Cardiff City supporters would be banged up on terrorism charges every week if that was the case - 100% if they were playing Swansea...

indeed! cardiff v swansea is always a good one, i was at the game at the liberty last year. i think plomp would've concluded that there were at least 20,000 terrorists in south wales.

[Wezil]

Then just call me Robert

I might be persuaded to use "Bob".

A simple three letter palindrome seems appropriate.

[Robert]

so singing a song makes someone a hooligan (or a violent extremist)?

In combination with using the extreme violence they committed later, it makes them extremistic fundamentalists indeed.

and your reasoning is faulty, you're clearly trying to paint the people on the ship as the aggressors.

Well, that's how they painted themselves from start on.
They were going to Gaza to breach the blockade, overthrow the zionists, hoping they would die in the process.

the israelis boarded the ship when they had no right to do so, at night and the people on board defended themselves.

When a militair or a policeman does something he's not supposed to do, you still obey, and pull him into the court later. Trying to kill him is defenitely not an appropriate response.

it would be as if some football fans were walking down the street, minding their own business and the police attacked them.

If these football fans walk towards the players home of their enemy, chanting "death to the enemy death to the enemy", and the authorities had forbidden them to go there, it's perfectly acceptable that the police stops them and searches their pockets.

You should really think your examples better through before applying them.

and please no more talk of martyrs, these people were on a ship delivering aid, they were 'armed' with bars and clubs and possibly knives (although even this isn't clear), i.e. things that you would normally find on a ship. my doublespeak detector is about to explode.

I don't think that you know what a martyr is.
An islamitic martyr is not someone who dies by blowing himself up.
It's everyone who dies in the battle for Allah.
These guys were on a trip to battle the zionists, hoping they would die in the process.
That's what they said themselves.

I think that you cloud your mind too much with the picture of the +-100 western ideologists that were also on the ship.

Great argument. If the odds are against you the only sane thing to do is give in. History disagrees.

Unless you of course want to die.
Which is in the end what these guys wanted.

i think plomp would've concluded that there were at least 20,000 terrorists in south wales.

what were they chanting?

[Robert]

I might be persuaded to use "Bob".

A simple three letter palindrome seems appropriate.

I'm sorry for asking too much from you

[Gibsie]

I have to say that I just love that the attack is defended as legal and fine because Israel were legally enforcing a bloackade... but then show that the blockade itself isn't especially legal, and then who cares about what's legal, Israel was actually doing what's right.

But... even the staunchest pro-Israeli (and a few have already posted to prove it) knows it wasn't right. You storm a vessel in international waters at night, people will defend themselves. If an Israeli aid ship in international waters was invaded by some armed Arabic enforcer types in the dead of night, they would act exactly the same, and defend themselves. Heck, they'd probably kill all the invaders, even if they were carrying out a legal search, and then their countrymen would rightly applaud them. But what actually happened here was that the defenders defended themselves, and then the Israelis (who clearly weren't expecting resistance from a bunch of hippies) had to protect themselves and kill a bunch of them. That's not right, that's a total clusterfluck. If the Israelis were writing a script of how the enforcement would have gone, the end result would not be several dead civilians, even if they had written in that the people on the ship would defend themselves.

Only someone not in control of their own mental faculties could believe that Israel were in the right here. Even if they were in the right to stop the ship, the way they did it, that resulted in several peopled killed was off the wall. How, why would anyone possibly think they were in the right?

[MOBIUS]

Because their name is Robert Plomp: the Mr Ben of Europe...

[Robert]

Only someone not in control of their own mental faculties could believe that Israel were in the right here.

That's me! I'm not in control of my own mental faculties.
In fact I'm a complete moron, not able to think or reflect at all.
It's quite embarashing how stupid I am.

Fortunately though there are always sane people like you who know the absolute truth. Please preach it once again to me, or am I beyond help already?

*flip* *priiiiiiiit* *I'm an airplane* *priiiii* *Israel is right* *always* *priiiiiii* *by default* *wowooooooo* *yes master, I will say that again master* *voices in my head STOP NOW* *flop flop*

[Robert]

Got to go now guys, was fun to debate with you

[MOBIUS]

Mate, you've gone already!