Ships to Gaza incident

[Kuciwalker]

[Note: I actually don't know how far away from the edge of Israeli territorial waters this occurred, because AFAIK it hasn't been widely reported. "A few hours" is a vague estimate on my part.]

As I said many times now, the fact that you think the same thing would've happened is not the point. If Israel had waited a couple hours, the raid would've been done in the light of day. Bet you it would've happened MUCH different then.

Oh, so the problem wasn't that it was in international waters, but that they should have at least tried to do the raid more carefully? Then you should agree with my point entirely, since I said the location of the raid was irrelevant, but that negligence/mistakes on the part of the planners probably resulted in more deaths than necessary, and that the morality of the blockade itself was questionable

[Asher]

uhh, what? Asher, it's true.

It's not true. I think it's clear from the footage there was widespread surprise and panic on the ship when the commandos came down.

I think the situation would've been handled much differently if it had happened in the light of day under the watchful eye of the media.

I think the reason why Israel DIDN'T wait until it was in Israel's waters was to board the ship while it was still dark. The commanders probably saw it as a strategic military advantage. And that approach explains how the outcome came to be.

[Al B. Sure!]

I also get pissed off when the loud mouth Islamist Turkish President claims there is a genecide in Gaza while Turkey still won't admit they actually systematically murdered 1-2 million Armenians.

Again... that was 90 years ago!

[Asher]

[Note: I actually don't know how far away from the edge of Israeli territorial waters this occurred, because AFAIK it hasn't been widely reported. "A few hours" is a vague estimate on my part.]

As I said many times now, the fact that you think the same thing would've happened is not the point. If Israel had waited a couple hours, the raid would've been done in the light of day. Bet you it would've happened MUCH different then.

Oh, so the problem wasn't that it was in international waters, but that they should have at least tried to do the raid more carefully?

Sigh. Not sure why you are failing at reading so badly here. I've repeatedly taken issue in this thread over how and when the raid was executed.

IN ADDITION, the place they did the raid happened to be international waters. Something I believe, and many others believe, is an illegal act. I also believe if they had waited a bit more, the ship would be in Israeli waters...but at that point, it would be daylight. I'm certain Israel wanted the raid to be at night. I'm certain that contributed to the panic. I'm certain the panic contributed to the deaths.

There is not one single problem there that I've issues with, it's many. You keep fixating on this one issue and seem to be pretending like it's the only issue I have. That makes you a bit of an idiot.

[Kuciwalker]

IN ADDITION, the place they did the raid happened to be international waters. Something I believe, and many others believe, is an illegal act.

And the fact that you think this has any moral relevance is sad.

[Asher]

IN ADDITION, the place they did the raid happened to be international waters. Something I believe, and many others believe, is an illegal act.

And the fact that you think this has any moral relevance is sad.

The fact that you attribute this to morality is even more sad. It's a legal issue, one that I took issue with on principle alone (as I have explicitly said).

[Al B. Sure!]

You really want to use this analogy? You can, in fact, arrest someone in order to prevent them from committing a crime. If I pulled out a gun, pointed it at you, and said "I'm going to kill Asher!" then a police officer would have every right to gun me down.

Umm... it's a bit more complicated than this. I don't feel like looking up cases but I'm pretty sure there have been cops who have gotten into hot water for killing people in certain situations. Typically, cops are put on paid leave and an investigation is done when cops kill suspects.

[Kuciwalker]

Thank you, AS, for demonstrating that Asher's analogy sucks.

[Al B. Sure!]

Well, I'm not sure how this relates to Israel but also, obviously you wouldn't be charged for the crime not yet committed (murder) but would be charged with attempted murder which was committed. It's not arresting someone for a crime not yet committed.

[Asher]

Thank you, AS, for demonstrating that Asher's analogy sucks.

It doesn't suck, you're just not understanding it. The point is you can't charge someone with murder if they haven't committed murder. You can't punish someone for murder if they haven't committed murder. You can't raid a ship for entering Israeli waters if it hasn't entered Israeli waters.

If Israel and/or international law had a law against stating intentions of entering their territory (like conspiracy to commit murder, etc all of the other things you are predictably talking about), then it's another issue. Far as I know, they don't exist.

The analogy is sound; you are not.

[Al B. Sure!]

Thank you, AS, for demonstrating that Asher's analogy sucks.

Aren't you the one implying that Israel pre-empted a crime?

[Kuciwalker]

Israel doesn't need a law to prevent people from entering its territory. It can do so on a whim; that's its sovereign right under universally recognized international law.

[Kuciwalker]

Aren't you the one implying that Israel pre-empted a crime?

I'm saying that the crime analogy sucks, but if he insists on using it then clearly Israel was preventing an imminent crime from happening, just as cops can do.

[KrazyHorse]

Whether or not it can do so in international waters seems to me to be a bit more nebulous, legally (as far as such a word applies to international incidents).

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm saying that the crime analogy sucks, but if he insists on using it then clearly Israel was preventing an imminent crime from happening, just as cops can do.

yeah but when cops do it and it results in the loss of life, it often also results in an investigation. Cops are not supposed to kill people to prevent crimes even the murder of innocents. The specific case and circumstances need to be investigated.