Progressives are economic retards

[Asher]

Hey Asher... I only have a minor in Econ (majored in Finance so there's that) and I can tell you right now that had you taken any courses beyond introductory ones (Econometrics for one), you would see that economics is far more than 'rules of thumb'. It is a scientific process more compellingly scientific than the other social sciences (which may not be saying much )

If you call economics a science again, I WILL smack you.

I do understand that later economics is math-heavy, but that doesn't make it a science either. Economics is about building models that approximate the real world and make best guesses as to how to proceed, they are not about understanding the real world. It's a pseudo-science.

But your opinions that you intuitively understand on many of these issues would only be further re-inforced. The effect of an increase in minimum wage or the application of a sales tax or anything else can result in vastly different outcomes depending on a number of conditions and variables, not too mention the fact that the outcome can be appraised with different sets of standards (is 'economic efficiency' the important value? Human social betterment? What do these terms mean?, etc.)

I'm aware of all of the variables in such a situation, but this is why I think the study of economics largely fails. Economists obsess about the numbers, and they lose the big picture when they do. They don't see inhumane situations in third-world factories, they see cost-effective labour and new employment.

I consider many workers in third world countries exploited. What is the correct answer, according to this study?

[Kuciwalker]

Where? At what time? Are you saying that the imposition of a minimum wage law in NYC in 2010 will have the same measurable effects as the imposition of a minimum wage law in Mumbai in 1927?

And there's always the old financial disclaimer... past performance does not predict future returns. This is ultimately a policy decision with future implications. The decision is made and the benefits/consequences are felt later. It's more than mere scientific appraisal of past events.

You're an idiot. Difficulty in measurement does not make a phenomenon subjective.

[Asher]

Drake, I am curious as to your educational background in economics? Bachelors? Graduate degree?

I have a history degree from the University of British Columbia.


I've also worked in business, having designed the website for a health food store.

Sidenote: He didn't even go to UBC, which is a reputable school.

He went to the University of Northern British Columbia, a school I didn't even know EXISTED until he mentioned it. It's a small university in a small town. 4177 enrolled students.

[Drake Tungsten]

I consider many workers in third world countries exploited. What is the correct answer, according to this study?

You're wrong, obviously. The lives of third worlders suck because they live in ****ty countries, not because an American company came along to give them a better job that still sucks by developed world standards.

[Kuciwalker]

Economics is about building models that approximate the real world and make best guesses as to how to proceed

That's exactly what physics is, too.

[loinburger]

The word "exploit" is as far from objective as is possible. Hell, there are posters here who think that American workers are being exploited - at least 99% of them are wrong, of course, but they're not objectively wrong, they're just common-sense wrong.

[ramseya]

Drake,

From the very same wikipedia link you provided on minimum wage, if you scroll down and read through 'Empirical studies' and 'Survey of Economists' you would see that none of this is that clear and dry. The Card and Kruger study, although controversial, indicates that other factors are involved and even economists are not fully sold on your supposed 'fact'.

[Kuciwalker]

There is one, arguably two subjective questions on the survey, Asher: "third-world employees working for American companies are exploited" and "the standard of living is higher now than 30 years ago". That's "many"?

[Asher]

Economics is about building models that approximate the real world and make best guesses as to how to proceed

That's exactly what physics is, too.

The difference being they can actually test their theories using real scientific methods. Economics can't, though they try...

[Drake Tungsten]

The Card and Kruger study, although controversial, indicates that other factors are involved

Ceteris paribus, *****.

[Fake Boris]

You're an idiot. Difficulty in measurement does not make a phenomenon subjective.

From a pragmatic perspective it does - until the measurement has been made.

[Asher]

I consider many workers in third world countries exploited. What is the correct answer, according to this study?

You're wrong, obviously. The lives of third worlders suck because they live in ****ty countries, not because an American company came along to give them a better job that still sucks by developed world standards.

They are being exploited, pure and simple.

The fact that the authors of this survey don't understand even the questions they're asking makes it a pretty awesome troll.

exploit: use or manipulate to one's advantage

How does this not apply to using cheap labour in foreign countries?

[Kuciwalker]

From a pragmatic perspective it does - until the measurement has been made.

No it doesn't! Subjectivity doesn't mean "different people think this thing is different", it means that the object is actually different for different people!

You would think a filosofer would understand something this basic.

objective: existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality
subjective: existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought

NOT DIFFICULT!

[Asher]

There is one, arguably two subjective questions on the survey, Asher: "third-world employees working for American companies are exploited" and "the standard of living is higher now than 30 years ago". That's "many"?

"free trade leads to unemployment" is also subjective...or more accurately, nuanced.

Jobs will be lost with free trade. That's a fact.

They may very well be made up elsewhere, but that doesn't stop it from leading to unemployment.

I consider at least 37.5% of the questions being blatantly subjective/nuanced as "many".

[ramseya]

You're an idiot. Difficulty in measurement does not make a phenomenon subjective.

Thanks for the compliment. And I said nothing about difficulty in measurement. Even the measurable outcomes could be completely different. Different countries, different times, different economies, different labor markets, capital:labor ratios, etc. To think that the imposition of the same policy will categorically result in the same outcomes is absurd.