Is the organic food movement the most anti-science social movement out there?

[Ecofarm]

Sustainably. It's mostly oil (fertilizer, pesticides and mechanics).

[KrazyHorse]

I have no idea what that word means.

[Ecofarm]

?

Main Entry: sus·tain·able
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈstā-nə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1727
1 : capable of being sustained
2 a : of, relating to, or being a method of harvesting or using a resource so that the resource is not depleted or permanently damaged b : of or relating to a lifestyle involving the use of sustainable methods

— sus·tain·abil·i·ty \-ˌstā-nə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun
— sus·tain·ably \-ˈstā-nə-blē\ adverb

Between being oil-intensive, soil-degrading, water-wasting, habitat-destroying, biodiversity depleting and generally poisonous... conventional agriculture is not sustainable (for even three billion, let alone 6+).

[KrazyHorse]

Let me clarify: I don't know what that word means in this context.

And your handwavy spiel about pesticides and fertilizers and biodiversity doesn't do anythnig to enlighten me. Quantify what you're worried about.

[Drake Tungsten]

(for even three million, let alone 6+)

Get this guy a trading job on Wall Street.

[KrazyHorse]

You seem to be of the blender school of chicken-little ecology (with a focus on gender).

[KrazyHorse]

(for even three million, let alone 6+)

Get this guy a trading job on Wall Street.

Apparently a newborn urban legend....

[Al B. Sure!]

EcoFarm:

What do you mean by sustainably? 3 Billion people already are being fed. I've always heard that the US could produce enough food to feed the entire world and that hunger (excepting in cases of famine or war) is not the primary problem in the 3rd world, but malnutrition is.

[Ecofarm]

I'm worried about our agriculture being a primarily oil-based endeavor. I'm worried about habitat destruction. I'm worried about pesticides impacting unintended-targets. I'm worried about losing biodiversity, the foundation of resiliance. I'm worried about aquifer depletion (not distinctly an organic concern). I'm worried about the longevity and impact of IPRs. I'm worried about the impact of a diet (and thus mind) based on monoculture.


Sustainability is about our ability to sustain the production, indefinately.

For examples, the US has depleted 50% of our largest aquifer in merely 100 years and the Aral Sea has disappeared. That is not sustainable.

See also:

Since the beginning of agricultural production in the Great Plains of North America in the 1880s about one half of its topsoil has disappeared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_(soil)

[Al B. Sure!]

Fair points, Ecofarm, but would organic farming alleviate these issues while still being intensified enough to feed a world population? I believe I've seen stats saying that organic farming could only support less than a billion people.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm worried about our agriculture being a primarily oil-based endeavor.

Nonsense concern, from an economic point of view

I'm worried about habitat destruction.

"Organic" farming takes up far more area per calorie than real farming.

I'm worried about pesticides impacting unintended-targets

This is a localized problem

I'm worried about losing biodiversity, the foundation of resiliance.

Can you quantify this is some reasonable way? My guess is not.

I'm worried about aquifer depletion (not distinctly an organic concern).

Whatever, dude. Water concerns are ridiculous. Even something as ridiculously expensive as desalination for agricultural purposes wouldn't make food unaffordable by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm worried about the longevity and impact of IPRs.

Some nonsense about how Monsanto or some such is going to starve the 3rd worlders?

I'm worried about the impact of a diet (and mind) based on monoculture.

Were you raised on monoculture?

[Ecofarm]

I'm worried about our agriculture being a primarily oil-based endeavor.

Nonsense concern, from an economic point of view

Does economics say that the supply of oil is limitless?

I'm worried about habitat destruction.

"Organic" farming takes up far more area per calorie than real farming.

Not true. Organic agriculture out-yields conventional production in the developing world. The Rodale Institute proved a man can live off 100 sq. ft. of land.

I'm worried about pesticides impacting unintended-targets

This is a localized problem

No it is not. See: monarch butterfly.

I'm worried about losing biodiversity, the foundation of resiliance.

Can you quantify this is some reasonable way? My guess is not.

It's basic ecology.

I'm worried about aquifer depletion (not distinctly an organic concern).

Whatever, dude. Water concerns are ridiculous. Even something as ridiculously expensive as desalination for agricultural purposes wouldn't make food unaffordable by any stretch of the imagination.

We could not feed even 1 billion people off de-salination. And that is assuming the price was payable and the oil available.

I'm worried about the longevity and impact of IPRs.

Some nonsense about how Monsanto or some such is going to starve the 3rd worlders?

Not at all.

I'm worried about the impact of a diet (and mind) based on monoculture.

Were you raised on monoculture?

No, I'm American.



"Monoculture begins in the mind and is then transferred to the land" -Vandana Shiva.


By the way, I'm surprised you can say this:

Don't apologize. I was a bit rough on you earlier without much cause, and I apologize. You show willingness to learn in this area, and I should respect that.

And then wallow in ignorance about agriculture.

[KrazyHorse]

Does economics say that the supply of oil is limitless?

No, of course not. It does, however, say that we will never run out of oil.

Not true. Organic agriculture out-yields conventional production in the developing world. The Rodale Institute proved a man can live off 100 sq. ft. of land.

What the **** are you talking about? Compare yield per acre in the developing world with yield per acre in the developed world. Even developed world "organic" farms drastically underperform real farms. This finding is robust across every study I'm aware of which uses a real methodology.



What university are you supposedly attending?

No it is not. See: monarch butterfly and Bt corn.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/btcorn/

There is no significant risk to monarch butterflies from environmental exposure to Bt corn, according to research conducted by a group of scientists coordinated by the Agricultural Research Service (ARS), U.S. Department of Agriculture. This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).

That Bt corn might present a risk became a matter of scientific and public concern when a small experiment in 1999 indicated caterpillars suffered when given no choice but to feed on milkweed leaves heavily dusted with Bt corn pollen.

The issue focused on the pollen of Bt corn because it, like any corn pollen, can blow onto milkweed leaves, which are the exclusive diet of monarch caterpillars.

Two major questions needed to be answered to determine whether there was any actual risk to monarch caterpillars from the Bt pollen:

How much Bt corn pollen does it take before there are any toxic effects on caterpillars?

What is the likelihood that caterpillars might be exposed to that much pollen?

The studies in this project showed that monarch caterpillars have to be exposed to pollen levels greater than 1,000 grains/cm2 to show toxic effects.

Caterpillars were found to be present on milkweed during the one to two weeks that pollen is shed by corn, but corn pollen levels on milkweed leaves were found to average only about 170 pollen grains/cm2 in corn fields.

Reports from several field studies show concentrations much lower than that even within the cornfield. In Maryland, the highest level of pollen deposition was inside and at the edge of the corn field, where pollen was found at about 50 grains/cm2. In the Nebraska study, pollen deposition ranged from 6 grains/cm2 at the field edge to less than 1 grain/cm2 beyond 10 meters. Samples collected from fields in Ontario immediately following the period of peak pollen shed showed pollen concentrations averaged 78 grains at the field edge.

Holy ****, isn't this supposed to be your area of study?

It's basic ecology.

As I suspected. You have zero evidence to demonstrate that there is any real danger here.

We could not feed even 1 billion people off de-salination. Ans that is assuming the price was payable.

Where the **** did you pull this number from, you ****?

Not at all.

Then explain yourself, twit.

No, I'm American.

Americans don't get their food from monoculture? Sorry, I must have been dreaming when I drove through Iowa and Nebraska.

[Ecofarm]

I'm recieving a Phd in Interdisciplinary Ecology from the University of Florida, Florida's land-grant university and a world-leading agricultural research institution. My area of expertise is developing world low-input agriculture and gender implications therein.

Regarding the yield of organic production vs. conventional in the developing world, I've cited earlier in this thread.

And the point of "monarch butterfly" was "migration", not a debate on the impacts of Bt corn.


And the point of "I'm American" is that we are not a monoculture, culturally speaking (note the Vanana Shiva quote). Sure, we've developed a monoculture-based agriculture, but I was speaking tongue-in-cheek.



Anyway, you are obviously not interested so I will not answer your questions on this anymore.

[ricketyclik]

I must say Ecofarm, I pretty much agree with you point-for-point on the above.