"Wait untill Mandela dies!"

[Heraclitus]

This is racist, bigoted, bollocks Hera!

Do you choose deliberately ignore extreme poverty, lack of basic education and social exclusion for an extended period of time?

I don't know why you bring up this strawman. I'm not arguing all or even most of the differences in global IQ mean's are due to genetics. But aruging all of it is explained by the enivronemt is not really the simplest exlanation all else being equal.



I couldn't find a larger graph but I think this one clearly shows how in the US at least Socio Economic status does not explain the presence of the various gaps.

This is racist, bigoted, bollocks Hera!

This goes for ethnic minority groups throughout the world. American Negroes hardly had it easy and it is far harder than you might believe to climb out of generations of poverty and social deprivation than you might believe.

I think Negores is considered offensive, I belive the appropriate term is Black or African American.

You might as well say that Jews are the intellectual superiors of Palestinians because they have been financed by the US to dispossess them of their land and attack the tiny enclaves that they have been given with Helicopter Gunships, Tanks and well trained trained and equipped Soldiers facing poorly equipped Militias. This is not IQ it is oppression and suppression enabled by money.

Jewish accomplisments through the last 1000 years outshine those of many many peoples, Palestinians just happen to also be in that group. And yes modern Israel despite Askenazis being in the minority does have a higher IQ (95) than Palestinians who live in horrible conditions. In this case I think we see a terrible cycle of poverty and violence, which needs to be broken at some point.

Even if it would trun out that I'm wrong and that Palestians are a few points below the average Israeli citizen evem under ideal conditions this would not give Israel the right to take land away from them.

I'm not going to adress the blatantly false comparison of the Israel and Palestine relationship and that of High IQ and Low IQ countries. It could be made for some Western nations or even China but.... Finland? South Korea? Oh I get it they're dirty capitalists or support wars of agression or meddle in other nations affairs or are privileged due to historic circumstances not of their making. So if a nation was mostly isolated and if its people didn't have a high standard of living or lived under constant terror then South Korean or Finnish IQs would be no different than those of Australian Aboriginies?

I have a nut for you to crack if you think this.




North Korea (107).

[Heraclitus]

did not save them from Britain which at the time had a far less developed

This is just not true. Britain was at the heart of Western Civilization at the time their culture had absorbed knowledge from cultures stretching thousands of years back to antiquity (Greek Philosphy, Roman Governance, Egyptian Mathematics, Middle Eastern Monotheism). Just because they didn't come up with it dosen't mean they didn't have it. And I challenge you to say the Ancient Greeks where not the equals of Indians.

India's history is also much more complex that simply one undisrupted culture stretching back to a few k BC. For most of its history India was more a subcontinent than a nation so its particularly unfair to compare the accomplishments of the many with those of the few, if you must compare the Western Europe as a whole to India.

And I'm the first to admit that untill you get to the 17th century Western Europe on its own discounting contributions from Antiquity did less for mankind as the various Indian civilizations.

India has one of the oldest and sophisticated cultures in the world but that did not save them from Britain which at the time had a far less developed culture but did have better weapons and some very fine Generals.

Why didn't you choose China and the Mongols or Romans and the Greeks as your example hm? In any case didn't you notice that when pressed to recognize who belongs in the gifted Class I put certain Indian populations right there with the Askhenazi Jews. Data show racism against brown people and relative poverty didn't stop the American diaspora from becoming prosperus (and they seem to keep their a lot of their high IQ into the next generation something that dosen't happent to extreme outliers of low IQ populations- google up regression towards the mean)

[MikeH]

So I think you've conclusively proved that intelligence isn't linked to skin colour. So now I'm not sure what your point is...

[Heraclitus]

So I think you've conclusively proved that intelligence isn't linked to skin colour. So now I'm not sure what your point is...

When did I say this has anything to do with skin color?


Edit: O I get it. For the last time skin color =/= race. And please don't now skip on the "race is a social construct that has no validity as a scientific category" train of wrong unill you read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin's_Fallacy

Or bother to google up what genetic studies tell us about correlation and clustering and how well it matches the classical races (except the African one should be, based on genotype, divided into several more besides the calssical Congoid and Capoid distinction). Seriusly did you even skim my post with the pretty graph?

[Heraclitus]

This is the reason I'm getting bored with this aspect of HBD. You can't disscus anything without getting sidetracted into debunking the same rethorical devices over and over and over and over again. Is anyone ever interested in finding out that older people make better decisions but tend to be misniformed since they have a hard time updating? Or why women tend to take less risks? What about the evolution of language?! No, but when you implicitly mention that the tendency towards drug use, agression or criminality is partially genetic, or how high a heritability IQ has a few people show up and try to "prove" you wrong. And boy don't you mention race differences cause that's sure to bring a lynch mob on a more plebeian forum or a long long pointless exercise on a more civilized one.


**** no one took my valid concern for my friends saftey seriusly and gave me advice or tired to convince me Sout Africa is just as safe as an average European country and that I souldn't try to convince him out of it. ****.

[DaShi]

I couldn't find a larger graph but I think this one clearly shows how in the US at least Socio Economic status does not explain the presence of the various gaps.

Why do you go back to the other thread that answered this issue? Or better yet, do some research and some thinking so you won't immediately jump to racist conclusions.

[DaShi]

This is the reason I'm getting bored with this aspect of HBD. You can't disscus anything without getting sidetracted into debunking the same rethorical devices over and over and over and over again. Is anyone ever interested in finding out that older people make better decisions but tend to be misniformed since they have a hard time updating? Or why women tend to take less risks? What about the evolution of language?! No, but when you implicitly mention that the tendency towards drug use, agression or criminality is partially genetic, or how high a heritability IQ has a few people show up and try to "prove" you wrong. And boy don't you mention race differences cause that's sure to bring a lynch mob on a more plebeian forum or a long long pointless exercise on a more civilized one.


**** no one took my valid concern for my friends saftey seriusly and gave me advice or tired to convince me Sout Africa is just as safe as an average European country and that I souldn't try to convince him out of it. ****.

Based on the cursory research you do on these topics, I don't believe that you are really interested. Other than for justifying your racism.

[MikeH]

South Africa clearly isn't as safe as a typical European Country if you look at the crime rates. But it is safe for well informed tourists.

DaShi FTW.

[Kidlicious]

Heraclitus has access to way too much bogus information.

[Heraclitus]

Based on the cursory research you do on these topics, I don't believe that you are really interested. Other than for justifying your racism.

Ad hominen. I didn't express a single statement that could be understood as racist on Apolyton or anywhere else for that matter untill a year or so ago when I began studying HBD.

[Heraclitus]

Why do you go back to the other thread that answered this issue? Or better yet, do some research and some thinking so you won't immediately jump to racist conclusions.

Heraclitus has access to way too much bogus information.

DaShi FTW.

You guys aren't reading or cheking for authenticity any of the sources I'm posting are you? I have been studying this for a long time, and the fact remains that an purley environemental position in its current publicly endorsed state (to be fair certain less know hypothesis do or did do this before they where debunked) dosen't provide any falsifiable hypothesis. Does anyone here grasp how important that is? **** I may as well start linking to a knuclehead lowbrow bigot site it'll have the exact same effect.

DaShi you didn't acknowledge or counter any meaningfull arguments from my side in that thread. Lets take a step by step overview of the arguments:

-Everyone on these forums who is well informed knows and maintains IQ tests correlate very well with many important things and are a usefull tool to predict competency, income and academic succes.

-Experts agree that a racial gap has been measured. All attempts to reduce the cultural bias appreciably have failed to produce "better tests" and the gap is basically the same exact size on dozens of other well respected non-IQ tests.


-And no race is not a useless social construct, the majority of experts doeas agree that race is a valid scientific concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy)

-Experts also agree that the gap is best explaine by combining both environmental and genetic factors (one of the many sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstr...n_Intelligence)




I can accept a fully environmental explanation as plausible if not the most likley. And I belive we need to do our very best to find out what is the cause of the IQ gaps. Economic or educational boosts don't seem to be doing much to help close it (no measurable effect so far). If its environmental we need to know exactly whats behind it before we can combat it. And combating it is of vital importance to the survival of the politcal entities of the United States of America, the United Kingdom and French Republic not to mention to the future prospects of the Third World.

If its genetic, we need to understand it as well since we may be just decades away from being able to fix it with genetic engineering or "smart drugs". Seriusly if my premises hold a project to change this would improve the human condition more than anything ever done before.

[Heraclitus]

South Africa clearly isn't as safe as a typical European Country if you look at the crime rates. But it is safe for well informed tourists.

The guy has never traveled further than Venice. I wouldn't call him well informed or even worldly,

[Kidlicious]

You guys aren't reading or cheking for authenticity any of the sources I'm posting are you?

That would only fool you.

[Heraclitus]

That would only fool you.

The sources you mean?

[Riesstiu IV]

Summary of thread:

Black people drive like this, white people drive like this!