Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[MikeH]

Though, playing Devil's Advocate for a second, if you put your partner's happiness over your own at a deadlock, haven't you submitted?

Yes, if they aren't doing the same. But they are doing the same, so you discuss rationally what makes sense.

[Kidlicious]

Mike, the more submissive person is the one who is really making the marriage work, not the other. That's why women are encouraged to be submissive, because men aren't good at it.

[MikeH]

You could substitute the word submit for compromise in everything you just said and it would still be true, except for balance. Paul says that it's better to treat other people better than yourself, and not to keep an account. If you are constantly trying to keep a balance of who is submitting it's not going to work, because the other person is going to keep records differently.

I'm not keeping track or suggesting anyone keeps track.

[Kidlicious]

I'm not keeping track or suggesting anyone keeps track.

Why did you say balance then?

[Asher]

Though, playing Devil's Advocate for a second, if you put your partner's happiness over your own at a deadlock, haven't you submitted?

In that one instance, obviously. But in others, he "submits" to me.

For instance, he wanted to go for dinner at one of his friends' houses -- a friend I find annoying. I didn't want to go, he did. I asked if he wanted me to go. He said yes, so I went.

The next week I wanted to go to a movie, to see Avatar. He didn't. But he knew I wanted to go, so he did.

I don't have a problem with "submitting" (you can't compromise on everything), I have a problem with having a "submissive partner" (one who is expected to do most of of the submission).

In reality, it's just compromise on a large scale. I do some things he wants me to do but I don't, and he does some things I want him to do but he doesn't.

[MikeH]

Mike, the more submissive person is the one who is really making the marriage work, not the other. That's why women are encouraged to be submissive, because men aren't good at it.

Sexist crap. Men just don't want to try and be good at it. Like housework.

And men are perfectly good at being submissive at work, in the military or whatever.

[Kidlicious]

Sexist crap. Men just don't want to try and be good at it. Like housework.

It's worse the way you say it.

And men are perfectly good at being submissive at work, in the military or whatever.

No. Women employees are much more submissive and they generally aren't as demanding as far as compensation.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That's more a function of society, Kid. Women may be submissive in the workplace because they've been told their place is there and if they become as assertive as a man, they are called names like *****.

[MikeH]

I still think the main reason they get paid less because of maternity leave not submissiveness on salary. If anything women have to be much less submissive to get on in the workplace.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't have a problem with "submitting" (you can't compromise on everything), I have a problem with having a "submissive partner" (one who is expected to do most of of the submission).

100% agreement.

I think the entire idea of "submissive partner" was just a mysogynistic relic. Women were expected to be second class, which is why Paul saw it in those terms. He couldn't comprehend equality of the genders, so he tried the best he could in making the wives submit to their husbands (which everyone was thinking was default), but also having husbands care fully and protect their wives. Of course, we know better now and can comprehend things like gender equality. That's why, in my Christian opinion, the Holy Spirt continues to do work in the world, so that when we are able to comprehend things better, it comes to us to articulate God's will, which we weren't ready for until that moment (as like slavery).

[Kidlicious]

That's more a function of society, Kid. Women may be submissive in the workplace because they've been told their place is there and if they become as assertive as a man, they are called names like *****.

Yes, they are oppressed too, but because they are naturally more submissive than men.

[Kidlicious]

Well this brings up the issue of how a Christian should act in an oppressive society. Jesus lived in an oppressive society and so did the disciples, Paul did as well. They weren't so demanding about their rights as modern Westerners are.

[Jon Miller]

It might be sociological, but it does seem that women want to be more submissive. Even those who consider themselves dominant when talking about the type of man they want. Relationships seem to work more often too.

JM

[Arrian]

Yay, over-broad generalizations of the genders! Like we haven't had this conversation before. I guess the Catholic Church's ongoing struggles with sex abuse coverups got boring. Though all this talk of women submitting sure sounds good 'n Christian...

I see three basic possibilities when a couple comes to a decision:

1) Both have strong opinions that conflict. Solution = compromise.
2) Both have opinions, but there is no conflict b/c the couple is in agreement from the start.
3) One has a strong opinion, the other doesn't really care. Solution = the one with the strong opinion largely gets his/her way. I wouldn't call this "submission" on the part of the one who doesn't really care.

In my marriage, #2 and #3 are the most common. Now that we have a daughter, that sets up more potential for disagreement, but even there we're pretty much on the same page.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, they are oppressed too, but because they are naturally more submissive than men.

It's more because they are naturally physically weaker (on average) than men.