How many Iraqi civilian casualties are acceptable?

[Jon Miller]

What do they count as dangerous occupations?

Police officer or fireman is what I would normally think of.

Maybe certain sorts of miners (or is that no longer the case)?

People working with hazardous materials? (In ports/etc)?

JM

[KrazyHorse]

Jon, I have not delved in that deeply to the analysis, but it's pretty easy to do a regression analysis on risk of death versus pay.

[loinburger]

Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 141.7
Number of fatalities: 51
Average salary: $19,104

Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 87.8
Number of fatalities: 101
Average salary: $129,250

Logging workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 82.1
Number of fatalities: 64
Average salary: $22,320

Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 61.0
Number of fatalities: 36
Average salary: $39,168

Refuse and recyclable material collectors
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 41.8
Number of fatalities: 38
Average salary: $23,770

Farmers and ranchers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 37.1
Number of fatalities: 291
Average salary: $15,603

Electrical power-line installers and repairers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 34.9
Number of fatalities: 38
Average salary: $45,331

Roofers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 33.9
Number of fatalities: 82
Average salary: $28,474

Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 27.1
Number of fatalities: 940
Average salary: $30,931 (for heavy or tractor-trailer drivers)

Miscellaneous agricultural workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 21.7
Number of fatalities: 158
Average salary: $24,140

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, but consider the jobs I named which I believe account for the majority of 'risky' jobs. And to have a 5-7 m comparative increase, that just doesn't seem reasonable given the incomes that risky jobs have.

JM

[Kontiki]

IIRC, firefighters and especially police officers are relatively low-risk occupations.

[SlowwHand]

What about driving instructors?

[Jon Miller]

http://crimeprevention.rutgers.edu/crime/violence/workplace/riskyjobs.htm

jm

[Kontiki]

I don't think being a victim of violence is the relevant metric.

[KrazyHorse]

Yeah, but consider the jobs I named which I believe account for the majority of 'risky' jobs. And to have a 5-7 m comparative increase, that just doesn't seem reasonable given the incomes that risky jobs have.

JM

Who cares what jobs you named? They're not that risky.

Also, you should note that some of those jobs are seasonal, so the effective risk premium goes way up.

Finally, I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. Go google the damned methodology.

[ShaneWalter]

Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 141.7
Number of fatalities: 51
Average salary: $19,104

Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 87.8
Number of fatalities: 101
Average salary: $129,250

Logging workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 82.1
Number of fatalities: 64
Average salary: $22,320

Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 61.0
Number of fatalities: 36
Average salary: $39,168

Refuse and recyclable material collectors
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 41.8
Number of fatalities: 38
Average salary: $23,770

Farmers and ranchers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 37.1
Number of fatalities: 291
Average salary: $15,603

Electrical power-line installers and repairers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 34.9
Number of fatalities: 38
Average salary: $45,331

Roofers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 33.9
Number of fatalities: 82
Average salary: $28,474

Driver/sales workers and truck drivers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 27.1
Number of fatalities: 940
Average salary: $30,931 (for heavy or tractor-trailer drivers)

Miscellaneous agricultural workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 21.7
Number of fatalities: 158
Average salary: $24,140

I don't think you can simply look at different occupations and say "Well this occupation is riskier and it's pay is $X more/less than this other occupation." A fisherman may be 50% more likely to die than an airline pilot, yet the airline pilot makes 6 times as much. That doesn't really tell you much, since there are significant educational differences between airline pilots and fisherman. The relevent metric would be what is the pay difference between two similar jobs, where the primary difference between the two is risk of death.

For example, when I was working as a welder, I was making about $17/hour. I was working in a manufacturing shop. I knew some people that worked in construction and they earned more than me, but their job also involved more risks. There were of course other differences as well, I believe construction companies wanted more experienced welders than manufacturing plants did, so this could account for some of the wage differential also, but it seemed to me the primary difference was risk (or at least perceived risk). Several highly experienced welders at my plant who could have easily qualified for many different welding jobs refused to work in construction due to what they perceived as increased risk.

[KrazyHorse]

That doesn't really tell you much, since there are significant educational differences between airline pilots and fisherman. The relevent metric would be what is the pay difference between two similar jobs, where the primary difference between the two is risk of death.

No ****, dude.

Dauphin, what the EPA et al use for their measure of the value of a human life is market-based; namely, it looks at the excess income earned by people in dangerous occupations relative to similar, safe occupations. The figure they currently use is in the 5-7 million dollar range, IIRC.

[Arrian]

"Some of you may die, but that's a risk I'm willing to take."

[ShaneWalter]

That doesn't really tell you much, since there are significant educational differences between airline pilots and fisherman. The relevent metric would be what is the pay difference between two similar jobs, where the primary difference between the two is risk of death.

No ****, dude.

Dauphin, what the EPA et al use for their measure of the value of a human life is market-based; namely, it looks at the excess income earned by people in dangerous occupations relative to similar, safe occupations. The figure they currently use is in the 5-7 million dollar range, IIRC.

Obviously your post wasn't clear enough and needed to be restated

[Dauphin]

The post made perfect sense to me. In fact, if I had missed the bolded bit, I'd think the post was a pile of tosh and would re-read it to see what the point was supposed to be.

So I blame stupidity and/or laziness on the parts of others rather than clarity - hence the need for you to restate.

[Dr Strangelove]

How did this conversation get turned to occupational fatalities? We're talking about Iraqis killed during the occupation, not by their occupations!