It's official: Afghanistan is Vietnam

[Kitschum]

I don't know that to be true. The Taliban seem to me to be a melange of Pakistani and Afghan (mostly Pakistani when there is any distinction between the two) folks. Lots of stories, probably.

The Pakistani and the Afghan Taliban are not one and the same. The Afghan Taliban is mostly Afghan (including refugees) Pashtuns.

Anyawy, the point was that it's disingenious to claim that there are no historical connections between the Taliban and the anti-Soviet mujahedin.

Hardly. These folks have been radical forever. Churchill was writing about it 100 years ago, to name but one Western soldier fighting in the area.

Right, they are radicalized by foreigners occupying their country, killing their women and children. Foreigners such as the British, the Soviets, and the Americans.

The Pashtuns likely don't (didn't) give two ****s about US military bases in Saudi Arabia, atrocities in Chechnya or the occupation of Palestine and other issues that drive the global jihad folks such as al-Qaeda, but recent events have brought them together.

[Kitschum]

Hekmatyar?

This very unpleasant individual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbuddin_Hekmatyar

Separately, if we wish to control/eradicate the poppy crop, then just buy it from the Afghans. A lot cheaper than the current war costs.

The reason the opium production grows is corruption. Everyone at every level from the policemen and soldiers at the bottom, to the generals and ministers and relatives of Hamid Karzai rely on income from opium/heroin smuggling. It's these people that need to be bought off.

[DinoDoc]

And even accepting that they are not the same, the Pashtuns were radicalized by the Soviet war, and some of the Taliban's allies did fight the Soviets, like Hekmatyar.

An ally who fled to Iran during thier rise to power?

[Kitschum]

An ally who fled to Iran during thier rise to power?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0416/p06s10-wosc.html

A prominent ally under the Taliban umbrella is Hizb-e-Islami, a group formed by warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar in the 1970s to fight the Soviet-backed government and later the Soviet invasion. Throughout the 1980s, Hizb-e-Islami was an ally of Pakistan and the United States.

I guess so.

[Drake Tungsten]

Anyawy, the point was that it's disingenious to claim that there are no historical connections between the Taliban and the anti-Soviet mujahedin.

No, it isn't.

[Kitschum]

Anyawy, the point was that it's disingenious to claim that there are no historical connections between the Taliban and the anti-Soviet mujahedin.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

[Dis]

and not every war can be vietnam. Maybe we'll have another Korea someday.

[Drake Tungsten]

Yes, it is.

The Taliban didn't even exist during the war against the Soviets. The people you claim "historically connect" the Taliban to the mujahideen (Hekmatyar and the Hezb-e-Islami) aren't members of the Taliban and aren't particularly friendly with them. DanS was right.

[Kitschum]

The Taliban didn't even exist during the war against the Soviets.

Your mistake is equating the mujahedin with its leaders.

The Taliban are quite literally the sons of the (Pashtun especially Kandahar and surrounding regions) mujahedin. They are the kids who were sent to Pakistan, to the madrasas, while their fathers fought the Soviets.

As an organization it was founded by mujahedin (Omar and others) who had fought the Soviets together, but had become disillusioned with the leadership. It recruited among the mujahedin and allied with some of them (while fighting others). It inherited the logistics network used by the mujahedin, and its ISI connections.

The Taliban were not identical to the mujahedin, but they were/are the next generation of a particular part of that movement.

The people you claim "historically connect" the Taliban to the mujahideen (Hekmatyar and the Hezb-e-Islami) aren't members of the Taliban and aren't particularly friendly with them. DanS was right.

They are friendly enough to fight alongside them.

[Drake Tungsten]

The Taliban are quite literally the sons of the (Pashtun especially Kandahar and surrounding regions) mujahedin. They are the kids who were sent to Pakistan, to the madrasas, while their fathers fought the Soviets.

Yes, which is why they had nothing to do with defeating the Soviets.

Of course, the majority of the Taliban were just the sons of refugees and not the sons of the mujahideen, but why quibble on that minor point when we're in agreement on the fact that the Taliban couldn't have played a role in defeating the Soviets?

They are friendly enough to fight alongside them.

The enemy of my enemy...

You should try reading a little more Afghan history; you'll eventually get to the part where the Taliban replaced Hekmatyar's group as the favorites of the Pakistanis and pushed them out of power.

[Kitschum]

Yes, which is why they had nothing to do with defeating the Soviets.

Agreed, that was the previous generation.

Of course, the majority of the Taliban were just the sons of refugees and not the sons of the mujahideen, but why quibble on that minor point when we're in agreement on the fact that the Taliban couldn't have played a role in defeating the Soviets?

Actually, many of them were orphans (see for instance Rashid's account on the origins of the Taliban).

You should try reading a little more Afghan history; you'll eventually get to the part where the Taliban replaced Hekmatyar's group as the favorites of the Pakistanis and pushed them out of power.

I am well aware of that, but see the CS Monitor article I provided above, or just read a more current account of Afghan 'history'...

[Drake Tungsten]

Agreed, that was the previous generation.

Good. I'm glad we've established that DanS wasn't being disingenuous when he made that claim.

[Kitschum]

Good. I'm glad we've established that DanS wasn't being disingenuous when he made that claim.

Of course not, and as you'll notice I never said so.

He was disingenuous in his apparent rejection of of the fact that the Taliban's origins are to be found in the anti-Soviet mujahedin being among other things, as I have said, the sons of the aforementioned...

[Drake Tungsten]

He was disingenuous in his apparent rejection of of the fact that the Taliban's origins are to be found in the anti-Soviet mujahedin being among other things

You just said that the Taliban had nothing to do with the defeat of the Soviets (and didn't even exist at the time), but now you're saying that their origin lies in the defeat of the Soviets? Your position is incoherent.

[DinoDoc]

Wasn't it the Northern Alliance, not the Taliban, who arose from the mujahideen fighters who threw out the Soviets?