It's official: Afghanistan is Vietnam

[Drake Tungsten]

The precursor to the Northern Alliance was formed in the waning days of the Soviet occupation by various mostly non-Pashtun mujahideen groups to prepare for the power vacuum that was sure to follow.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Of course not, and as you'll notice I never said so.

He was disingenuous in his apparent rejection of of the fact that the Taliban's origins are to be found in the anti-Soviet mujahedin being among other things, as I have said, the sons of the aforementioned...

I don't know who you are, but I've got to say: you're wrong about this. The question of who the Taliban's daddies were is irrelevant. They were not motivated in any way by the struggle against the Soviets, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous. In fact, the Taliban in Afghanistan are considered, internally, a bit of a puzzle precisely because they are seen as abandoning family and tribe in favor of a religious-ideological cause; such a decision is anathema in Afghan culture. This is not to say that the Taliban had nothing in common with the mujahedin: both used the language of jihad in their struggles, both received support -- money and volunteers -- from the Gulf states, both were backed by the ISI. But those commonalities do not create an equivalence, or a lineage.

[Kitschum]

You just said that the Taliban had nothing to do with the defeat of the Soviets (and didn't even exist at the time), but now you're saying that their origin lies in the defeat of the Soviets? Your position is incoherent.

I am simply saying that the Taliban's origins are in (a part of) the mujahedin and they cannot be understood without realizing this.

The Taliban consists of people, right, and those people were mujahedin (Mullah Omar, and the rest of the inner circle which I'm not going to look up the names of) and sons of mujahedin taking over the infrastructure, schools and support established for the mujahedin.

The Taliban was formed as a reaction from within (and from below) the mujahedin to stop the infighting and excesses of some of the commanders. You could say it was an attempt at purifying and uniting the splintered movement and by extension all of Afghanistan.

Wasn't it the Northern Alliance, not the Taliban, who arose from the mujahideen fighters who threw out the Soviets?

All of them originated in the mujahedin. It was a wide tent.

The Taliban are almost exclusively Pashtun, and especially from around Kandahar, while all of Afghanistan's ethnic groups were represented in the mujahedin.

[Drake Tungsten]

I am simply saying that the Taliban's origins are in the mujahedin

No, they aren't.

[Kitschum]

I don't know who you are, but I've got to say: you're wrong about this. The question of who the Taliban's daddies were is irrelevant.

I don't know you either. Why is it irrelevant? It is crucial to the idea of who the Taliban are. They were sent away by their mujahedin fathers to be educated in schools established by mujahedin supporters. Then they were gathered up in Pakistan by some of the more radical mujahedin fighters such as Mullah Omar and the rest of the Oruzganis.

The Taliban represents a generational transition in a part of the former mujahedin movement.

They were not motivated in any way by the struggle against the Soviets, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Of course not. That was the previous generation as I have repeatedly stated.

[Kitschum]

No, they aren't.

Oh yes, they are.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

The Taliban consists of people, right, and those people were mujahedin (Mullah Omar, and the rest of the inner circle which I'm not going to look up the names of) and sons of mujahedin taking over the infrastructure, schools and support established for the mujahedin.

This is absolutely false, especially about Omar. Omar was not mujahedin and he did nothing of note during the Soviet war. In fact, when teh Taliban emerged during the 90s, the ISI at first didn't have a freakin' clue as to who Omar was, aside from some reclusive, self-styled cleric peddling a batsh*t-crazy interpretation of Islam. So, no.

[Drake Tungsten]

I leave this to you, Rufus.

[Kitschum]

This is absolutely false, especially about Omar. Omar was not mujahedin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Omar

Omar fought as a guerilla with the Harakat-i Inqilab-i Islami faction of the anti-Soviet Mujahideen under the command of Nek Mohammad, and fought against the Najibullah regime between 1989 and 1992.[8]

The reference is to Rashid.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I think our problem here may be one of semantics. If you're using mujahedin to mean anyone involved in fighting the Soviets, then pretty much everyone in Afghanistan was mujahedin, including obscure sub-commander-in-the-boondocks Omar. This designation strikes as so broad as to be meaningless. And while Rashid does indeed refer to the Taliban as a "second generation of mujahedin," it's very clear if you actually read his book (instead of the Wiki summary) that what he means by this is a second generation of guerrilla fighters in the chaos of Afghanistan, not the literal or even figurative descendants of Hekmatyar, Rabbani, Massoud, et al. and their followers.

[Kitschum]

I think our problem here may be one of semantics. If you're using mujahedin to mean anyone involved in fighting the Soviets, then pretty much everyone in Afghanistan was mujahedin, including obscure sub-commander-in-the-boondocks Omar. This designation strikes as so broad as to be meaningless.

No, the communists or anyone who did not fight the Soviets and the communists were not mujahedin. A mujahed is one who participates in jihad. It is the straightforward definition, while yours is one tailored to your particular argument.

And in any case, it is clearly not the one used by Ahmed Rashid.

And while Rashid does indeed refer to the Taliban as a "second generation of mujahedin," it's very clear if you actually read his book (instead of the Wiki summary) that what he means by this is a second generation of guerrilla fighters in the chaos of Afghanistan, not the literal or even figurative descendants of Hekmatyar, Rabbani, Massoud, et al. and their followers.

I linked to Wikipedia because it was readily available. But for you, I'll copy some quotes down. Pp 22-23:

For those Mujaheddin who had fought the Najibullah regime and had then gone home or to continue their studies at madrassas in Quetta and Kandahar, the situation was particularly galling. 'We all knew each other - Mullahs Omar, Ghaus, Mohammed Rabbani (no relation to President Rabbani) and myself - because we were all originally from Urozgan province and had fought together,' said Mullah Hassan. 'I moved back and forth from Quetta and attended madrassas there, but whenever we got together we would discuss the terrible plight of our people living under these bandits.

Other groups of Mujaheddin in the south were also discussing the same problems. 'Many people were searching for a solution. I was from Kalat in Zabul province (85 miles north of Kandahar) and had joined a madrassa, but the situation was so bad that we were distracted from our studies and with a group of friends we spent all our time discussing what we should do and what needed to be done,' said Mullah Mohammed Abbas, who was to become the Minister of Public Health in Kabul. 'The old Mujaheddin leadership had utterly failed to bring peace. So I went with a group of friends to Herat to attend the Shura called by Ismael Khan, but it failed to come up with a solution and things were getting worse. So we came to Kandahar to talk with Mullah Omar and joined him,' Abbas added.

All those who gathered around Omar were the children of the jihad but deeply disillusioned with the factionalism and criminal activities of the once idealised Mujaheddin leadership. They saw themselves as the cleansers and purifiers of a guerilla war gone astray, a social system gone wrong and an Islamic way of life that had been compromised by corruption and excess. Many of them had been born in Pakistani refugee camps, educated in Pakistani madrassas and had learnt their fighting skills from Mujaheddin parties based in Pakistan.

[Drake Tungsten]

Overly literal reading

[Berzerker]

Considering your response was to Drake saying there is no point to us still being in Afghanistan... whats yer point?

My response was to the notion we've achieved all we can at this point

killing or capturing the people responsible for 9/11 would be nice... Cant see that we 'achieved' anything other than spooking the prey into hiding.

see the rest of the quote? Drake cant figure out I was more or less agreeing with him.



but we do have Iran surrounded

[Kitschum]

Overly literal reading

Make me some tea. And serve it hot, or I'll spank you some more

[Drake Tungsten]

You have to wait until people know who the **** you are before you can start talking ****.