F-22 will see no more orders, VH-71 cancelled

[Patroklos]

They don't need VTOL. That is them getting too fancy.

If you want to operate effective fixed wing CAS aircraft off or large deck amphibs, then yes it is needed and no it is not too fancy. And that is the sole reason for the VTOL requirement.

[Sirotnikov]

Not a military mindset in America Siro
Not sure if it has been for a long time

Airstrikes,Artillery,Naval Bombardment, are but three examples of units not being in close proximity to ground units fighting close proximity battles.

Don't bombarding units have on-site liaison officers, that direct and command the fire?

Actual artillery operators can't possibly be in the same place, since the artillery needs to be in the field, while an airplane pilot needs to be in the plane. No such limitations exist on AUV operators.

In any case, UAV missions are different from artillery missions.

Unit cohesiveness is important, but by no way or means slows a military operation down

I'm not claiming it makes it impossible. Being on site is simply better on the long term.

Being away inhibits cooperation, taking advantage of opportunities, inventing new ways to tackle problems, or coming up with better solutions.

A person who sits in the same war room, intuitively understands the situation on the ground much better than someone who is comfortably sitting at his desk in the US.

Digital communication is a great thing, but eventually communication is around people, and how they behave. And that is heavily affected by one's physical location, and not solved with technology.

If you have grid coordinates, what real difference does it matter if an AWAC in flight, a naval Vessel in a bay or far off coast or a bunker or a command module thousands of miles away, information is information.

There's more to combat than getting a missile to strike coordinates. Both in long term things such as mission planning, and follow up. But especially in missions which require real-time interaction with people in the field, where the AUVs are covering forces.

That is why grunts have embedded artillery liaisons, and why field HQs have intel and airforce liasons. That is why battalion commanders are being given their own micro-tactical UAVs. A commander in the field, usually understands the situation in his section much better than someone in the HQ.

I hope at least tactical forces will have their own UAVs.

[KrazyHorse]

Physical proximity, has a great deal of effect on successfully coordinating forces.

No.

[Asher]

It really is amusing that his entire lengthy argument is based off one false assumption.

[KrazyHorse]

I'm the last person to claim video-conferencing or collaboration tools are bad or inadequate. They're great, and the enable things that never happened before. But, they can not totally replace physical proximity, and that should be preferred, when possible.

I'm not talking about stuff like disruptions or delays. I'm talking about the necessity of all staff being on a single mission, being physically in the same group, and in the same mindset.

It isn't crucial for civilian uses, but military stuff is different. When you have AUV's responsible for real-time video, or more importantly - real-time sniping and shooting, the operators need to be as close to the local commanders as possible. They need to have the same mindset, the same worries, be aware of the same stuff in the control room. They even need t go on the same coffee breaks, and have chats at the cooler together.

It does create a huge difference. It creates cohesion and allows for cooperation on a level that otherwise simply does not happen.

Basically, you're just waving your hands in the air and mumbling some nonsense here.

[TCO]

I think if you're talking near term response, adapt and overcome, changing and doing something not done before...having assets and operators able to talk to each other is helpful.

[Asher]

It's like what a first year MBA student would write in an essay on the necessity of synergy and paradigm shifts, but instead about cohesion and mindset.

[KrazyHorse]

I think if you're talking near term response, adapt and overcome, changing and doing something not done before...having assets and operators able to talk to each other is helpful.

The thing is that the greater the difference between jobs and skillsets the LESS are the benefits from having them in constant contact with each other. I've seen it before in scientific settings. When there are small differences in perspective people are able to bridge the gap and come up with innovations. When there are large differences all the other side gets is a cartoon picture. Not good enough to make new stuff possible.

[Sirotnikov]

It really is amusing that his entire lengthy argument is based off one false assumption.

It's like what a first year MBA student would write in an essay on the necessity of synergy and paradigm shifts, but instead about cohesion and mindset.

It is equally amusing that people with combat experience peaking at possibly multi-playing Halo, are confidently talking out of their asses about managing large scale military operations.

[KrazyHorse]

Management is overrated.

Far, far overrated.

[Sirotnikov]

The thing is that the greater the difference between jobs and skillsets the LESS are the benefits from having them in constant contact with each other. I've seen it before in scientific settings. When there are small differences in perspective people are able to bridge the gap and come up with innovations. When there are large differences all the other side gets is a cartoon picture. Not good enough to make new stuff possible.

ugh, imagine if you will, that you go to a hospital to undergo open heart surgery.

would you prefer the doctor to be in the operating room where you are, and the rest of the staff, or would you have him remote controlling a robot from his living room?

[KrazyHorse]

Siro, that is a retarded analogy.

A surgeon's job is based on having loads of high-quality sensory feedback which current tech only allows us to mimic very badly.

A UAV operator is CUT OFF FROM HIS ENVIRONMENT BY THE VERY NATURE OF HIS JOB. Whether he's sitting in his office in Kabul while he does that or in Nevada doesn't make a difference except insofar as there may be transmission lag and more dropped signals.

Stop being stupid.

[KrazyHorse]

The proper analogy is whether you want your doctor sitting in the same city operating on you remotely or in a different city operating on you remotely.

[Sirotnikov]

Management is overrated.

Far, far overrated.

i used the word management to describe the process of handling and controlling the operation, and not limited to the decisions made by a single high-brass commander.

which is exactly the reason why any weapons or assets operator should be closer to the people whose lives he defends, and farther away from high brass esp. in home command.

[Asher]

It is equally amusing that people with combat experience peaking at possibly multi-playing Halo, are confidently talking out of their asses about managing large scale military operations.

Digital communication and networking is the same regardless of the situation.

The simple fact is you spewed obvious vacuous bull**** about why you need to be local to fly a plane remotely. Anyone with a truly analytical mind would've dismissed your opinion outright, as I have. It was nonsense.

The fact is, you're flying these planes remotely anyway. If you've already got realtime video and voice communication, you gain nothing by being within 5km or so -- or even in the same room as other people.

I know this because I've worked remotely in high-intensity real-time situations. I've been involved in crises where a system goes down in an investment bank that is the vehicle for billions of dollars of transactions daily, where every minute the system is down millions of dollars are lost. I've been part of these teams while working remotely from the main team (we're in Toronto, they're in New York). We collaborated in realtime with teams in NYC, London, Tokyo, and Mumbai much like you would in a combat operation.

They're not that far apart. You've got your chain of command, your high intensity situation, and you're doing everything remotely. It's far more similar than you realize.

So really, the fact that you were part of the Israeli military which is more famous for atrocities in Palestine than anything else -- and where you probably were an IT monkey at best or an infantryman at worst -- doesn't give you any extra cred in this discussion.

But putting aside your obvious inexperience with realtime decisionmaking and remote collaboration, the simple fact is what you wrote was complete and utter vacuous bull****.