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  • #91
    It's a good thing we're making Afghanistan a better place.


    THE HAGUE — An effort by ministers from the United States, Canada and other members of the 42-nation coalition fighting in Afghanistan to put an optimistic face on the war's progress came close to collapse on Tuesday when Afghan President Hamid Karzai was publicly accused of supporting a law that dramatically limits the rights of women.

    Attended in total by 72 countries and organizations interested in rebuilding the country, The Hague summit was meant to be a “big tent” show of support for U.S. President Barack Obama's new Afghanistan war plans. But by day's end the participants had been forced to confront the reality of a government riddled with corruption and committed to legislating sexual inequality.

    According to United Nations organizations that have seen it, a law backed by the Karzai government would legalize rape within marriage and would forbid women from going to the doctor or leaving their home without their husband's protection.

    It also reportedly grants custody of children only to fathers or grandfathers.
    U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Afghan President Hamid Karzai meet in The Hague on Tuesday. Reports say Ms. Clinton reproached Mr. Karzai over a law that dramatically limits the rights of women.

    When the law was brought to the attention of the summit by the Finnish Foreign Minister Tuesday afternoon, forcing U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to back away from her optimistic message, it marked the culmination of a day in which public statements of progress in Afghanistan were contradicted by private expressions of deep concern.

    “Things are going worse for us than they have during the past four or five years – the Taliban controls more of our territory than before, and we have made no progress at all on corruption,” a Canadian official said moments before Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon told the summit that he was “immediately able to see the results and impacts of our efforts” in Afghanistan.

    The rape-law allegations were an especially severe blow to a conference meant to be what Ms. Clinton called a “blank slate,” in which the 42 countries in the coalition would commit themselves with renewed vigour to the eight-year-old UN-mandated campaign, with support from 4,000 additional U.S. troops and a long-term commitment from Mr. Obama.

    Faced with questions about the law Tuesday afternoon, Ms. Clinton expressed dismay. She is said to have upbraided Mr. Karzai, whose presidency has been backed and promoted by the United States for years, in a private meeting.

    “This is an area of absolute concern for the United States,” she told reporters. “My message is very clear. Women's rights are a central part of the foreign policy of the Obama administration.”

    Officials from other countries had even more trouble hiding their disappointment with a government that was meant to signal a turn away from the sexual oppression of the ousted Taliban regime.

    In Ottawa, Trade Minister Stockwell Day, chairman of the cabinet committee on Afghanistan, suggested that if the reports are true, Canada's support for the Afghan government will be affected.

    “If these prove to be true, this will create serious problems for the government of Canada, for the people of Canada,” Mr. Day said. “The onus is upon the government of Afghanistan to live up to its human-rights responsibilities, absolutely including the rights of women. If there is any wavering on this point … this will create serious difficulties, serious problems for the government of Canada.”

    He added: “We expect this to be addressed. We expect the government of Afghanistan to live up to its responsibilities to protect the rights of people, to respect the rights of women.

    Spousal sexual assault is an offence in most parts of the Western world, and became a crime in Canada in 1983. In its 1993 declaration on the elimination of violence against women, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights established marital rape as a human-rights violation.

    For many officials, the reports of Mr. Karzai's support for the law making rape exclusively an extramarital crime mark the culmination of years of frustration with the corruption, inertia and culture of impunity for which his government is known. One Canadian official said that Mr. Karzai no longer has the support of any country fighting in Afghanistan, but nothing can be said in public because he is likely to win the presidential election scheduled for this summer.

    A British cabinet minister was more explicit. “We are caught in the Catch-22 that the Afghans obviously have the right to write their own laws,” Lord Malloch Brown, the foreign secretary for Africa and Asia, told the Guardian newspaper Tuesday. “But there is dismay. The rights of women was one of the reasons the U.K. and many in the West threw ourselves into the struggle in Afghanistan. It matters greatly to us and our public opinion.”

    The outcry over Mr. Karzai's government masked a difficult moment for the Canadians, who have taken on an important and potentially influential role in the NATO coalition on the eve of their departure.

    With 2,800 soldiers fighting in the most dangerous part of Afghanistan, Canada has suffered the highest casualty rate of any coalition member, and has an important leadership role in the country's troubled south. The Canadian approach to counterinsurgency, with civilian teams providing nation-building work in an effort to win over the population, has been studied and in some ways emulated by U.S. forces.

    Mr. Cannon was able to proclaim a Canadian victory in having built a new agreement between Pakistani and Afghan border officials, after talks organized by Canada. But there was a distinct sense that Canada is no longer being treated as a major coalition partner now that both the governing Conservatives and the opposition Liberals have made it clear that they will withdraw all combat troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2011.

    Canada did not share in the major international development of the day, a public diplomatic contact between the United States and Iran for the first time in 30 years. Signalling a possible rapprochement between Iran and the West, Iran sent a mid-level official to the meeting and held talks in which Tehran agreed to co-operate with drug-eradication schemes in Afghanistan and allow non-military supplies to be sent across its borders – in both cases solving difficult logistical problems for the coalition.

    Although Canada has better diplomatic relations with Iran than does the United States, which has had no embassy in the country since the Islamic revolution in 1979, there is no sense that Canada is sharing in any possible reconciliation with the Americans.

    Prime Minister Stephen Harper has taken uncompromisingly negative positions toward Iran, Russia and other countries that have troubled relations with NATO. Some officials said that this has denied Canada its traditional role as a middle power conciliator at such summits.

    There were no meetings between the Iranians and the Canadians, Mr. Cannon said.




    All I need now is for some supporter of the mission to talk about how we're "sending little girls to school".

    What a joke.
    "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
    "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

    Comment


    • #92
      When I posted on Afghanistan a couple years ago I could expect a pile-on of mission supporters telling me how wrong I was. Strangely these folks have all gone silent.

      I should pull the old threads and call these people out.
      "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
      "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

      Comment


      • #93
        It's barely 9am, what do you expect?

        No one was expecting a sudden and abrupt cultural shift just because the Taliban was ousted. These things take time, and you can't tell me the current Afghani administration is as bad as the Taliban was.

        So there's at least four reasons no one responded yet:
        1) The time you posted it
        2) The duration it's been posted is short
        3) Your hostile tone
        4) Pretending like the whole mission was worthless because of this article, which is utter nonsense

        We're talking about something that's only been outlawed in Canada for 25 years. Only a few short years ago, Afghanistan was a VERY different place politically. There's a lot of "backwards" thinking in that country that doesn't disappear instantly as soon as the government at the time was overthrown. So pointing out simply that it didn't instantly work doesn't invalidate the mission in any way, but it is disappointing.
        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

        Comment


        • #94
          You act as if this piece of legislation is a "one off". Sadly it is part of the pattern.
          "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
          "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #95
            As to tone - Yes, I am pissed off that the war supporters labelled those of us opposed to the mission as "cut and run" supporters. Cut and run is what we should have done a very long time ago. This is not a government our troops should be dying to support.
            "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
            "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Wezil View Post
              Strangely these folks have all gone silent.
              They might see no use in talking to a brick wall?
              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                As to tone - Yes, I am pissed off that the war supporters labelled those of us opposed to the mission as "cut and run" supporters. Cut and run is what we should have done a very long time ago. This is not a government our troops should be dying to support.
                I didn't like the cut and run namecalling either, but what do you expect with politics.

                I think overthrowing the Taliban was and is the right thing to do. But on the other hand, I've always been realistic with my expectations. The idea that women can go from uneducated objects to fully-equal citizens overnight is ludicrous. It'll take a generation or two for the culture in Afghanistan to change, and even though I don't like the current Afghani government it's a huge step forward compared to the Taliban before.

                But I will be happy to see Canada phase itself out of the country now. They need to right their own ship at this point.
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                  They might see no use in talking to a brick wall?
                  Yet we're still in Afghanistan.

                  Strangely contradictory.
                  "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                  "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                    When I posted on Afghanistan a couple years ago I could expect a pile-on of mission supporters telling me how wrong I was. Strangely these folks have all gone silent.

                    I should pull the old threads and call these people out.
                    You're vastly oversimplifying the motives for supporting the war in Afghanistan.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                    Comment


                    • Cut and run.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DanS View Post
                        You're vastly oversimplifying the motives for supporting the war in Afghanistan.
                        I appreciate your comment Dan and I admit my comments are more aimed at the handful of Canadian posters still left at this site than the US posters. That said, I think your "motives" would fail any logical examination at this time. I'll leave it to you to say what you think these motives are.

                        In your country the A- mission was sold differently than here. The "security" argument simply didn't fly in this country and in order to bolster public support the government(s) sold the mission as a humanitarian effort of sorts. We were going to build schools and send little girls to school while we rescued these people from the yoke of Taliban control.

                        After the US disaster in Iraq I can understand how your country sees A- as "the good war". Unfortunately, after almost 10 years on the ground it has become obvious there is very little that is "good" about it.

                        Asher - You and I aren't too far apart on reasoning with the exception I think the time to leave was years ago. We should have kicked Taliban/Al Qaida ass quickly and severely then left. Dragging Afghanistan into the modern world is not our responsibility. There are many nations far more worthy of our aid than this ****hole.
                        "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                        "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                        Comment



                        • Prospect of international troop boost in Afghanistan fades

                          DOUG SAUNDERS AND BRIAN LAGHI

                          Globe and Mail Update

                          April 4, 2009 at 9:29 AM EDT

                          STRASBOURG — The prospect of an “Obama boost” of thousands of extra international troops to shift the tide of the Afghanistan war faded today, as NATO countries disappointed the U.S. president's expectations.

                          Last year, Mr. Obama's aides and officials from the 26-nation North Atlantic Treaty Organization had hoped that the president's pledge to add 21,000 US troops to the troubled war would be met with increased contributions from NATO nations, possibly amounting to as many as 10,000 troops.

                          But yesterday, as world leaders met on the French-German border to mark the 60th anniversary of the alliance with a high-level summit, it became apparent that the war would be shifting mainly into US hands, since the rest of NATO's nations are increasingly wary to get any more deeply involved in Afghanistan.

                          But German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Nicolas Sarkozy, whose countries had offered the best hope for strong troop increases, both made clear in remarks today that they expect the training of Afghan National Army troops to take the new burden, and would not immediately be offering new troops.

                          Mr. Obama expressed frustration with the share of the Afghanistan burden being taken by the United States. “This is not an American mission; this is a NATO mission, this is an international mission,” he said. He added: “It is probably more likely that al-Qaeda would be able to launch a serious terrorist attack in Europe than in the United States because of proximity.”

                          Of the 58,390 NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan under the United Nations-ordered International Stabilization and Assistance Force, 26,215 are from the US (Mr. Obama's ‘surge' will almost double this), 8,300 from Britain, 3,465 from Germany and 2,830 from Canada.

                          Ms. Merkel suggested that the retraining of the Afghan National Army would be a substitute for adding troops. “What we need to do is to understand Afghanistan is a test case for all of us,” she said Saturday afternoon. “We need to promote ‘Afghanization'.” But she said that Germans would “Do its bit,” without suggesting the possibility that Germany might consider removing “caveats” that prevent its soldiers from fighting in combat-ridden areas.

                          However, US officials said in off-record briefings yesterday that they believe that other NATO countries will contribute hundreds more troops during the next few weeks. Few details were forthcoming.

                          Indeed, one of the few areas where a larger commitment in Afghanistan seemed to show promise was in expanding NATO's membership.

                          Mr. Obama welcomed the possibility of increased membership in the NATO alliance.

                          “The door to membership will remain open,” for countries that meet the alliance's obligations, Mr. Obama said Saturday morning. He made the remarks while bringing Albania and Croatia into the fold.

                          There are now 28 members of the Alliance, which can include only European and North American countries.

                          While this may provide larger contributions to major conflicts such as Afghanistan, it also raises the possibility of more indecision and policy deadlocks within NATO, which required unanimous consent from all its member nations.

                          Just such a deadlock is taking place over the selection of the next Secretary-General, after Turkey adamantly refused to endorse the preferred choice, Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen.

                          It now appears that decision will be postponed to July, although Mr. Obama had hoped to have it decided today. Some Canadian officials believe this will give defence minister Peter MacKay a chance at the job.




                          It is rapidly becoming "an American mission". No one wants to send more troops and many troops that are there are scheduled to leave in the next couple years.


                          edit - As an aside, the Dane got the NATO job. I was hoping for MacKay. I thought a man known for breaking his word would have been good to head up NATO.
                          Last edited by Wezil; April 4, 2009, 10:34.
                          "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                          "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • Right, so the west should have bombed the Taliban all the way to Pakistan, then leave only to let them return? What kind of insane logic is that?

                            You wouldn't have achieved your goals on top of enraging the entire muslim world at the same time. gj.
                            "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
                            "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

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                            • Originally posted by Traianvs View Post
                              Right, so the west should have bombed the Taliban all the way to Pakistan, then leave only to let them return? What kind of insane logic is that?
                              Most of the heavy fighting on the ground was done by Afghanis with western air support. Driving the Taliban out was relatively easy. Their coming back to power would not have been so easy and would occupy their attention for quite some time.

                              Keep in mind the Taliban didn't commit 9/11 - Al Qaida did. Our gripe with the Taliban was their refusal to hand over the "suspects" we wanted or (at the least) to evict them from A-.

                              Driving them from power and leaving a note behind telling them not to make us come back would have been preferable to falling into some mistaken belief we could remake this medieval country in our image.

                              You wouldn't have achieved your goals on top of enraging the entire muslim world at the same time. gj.
                              What were our goals?

                              I think the attack on Iraq did more to enrage the Muslim world more than a clearly justified attack on A- did. The muslim world probably doesn't take kindly to the long-term occupation of A- however. As with Iraq it is a recruiting magnet.
                              "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
                              "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wezil View Post
                                After the US disaster in Iraq
                                It cost a whole lot more than wished, but that war is well on its way to being won, thanks to the general now in charge of the Afghan war. It is not a disaster.
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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