Latest Middle East Thread

[tranquill]

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

[GePap]

oh, I'm so sorry we're not a well-behaved polite polite people as you'd have us, and that we have pathetic (and evil!) claims for self-determination

I only hope we someday achieve the right for self-determination, as promised to every people by the UN charter and modern political thought, in your eyes too. *sniff* *sod*

The core problem was that you gained your self-determination by denying it to another group.

[Sirotnikov]

The core problem was that you gained your self-determination by denying it to another group.

I will say that this was more a result of circumstance than other problems,
Most early zionist movements believed in a two state solution, some even considering a united federal government. Given the resentment the Zionist idea received (justly or unjustly), this view was abandoned by mainstream Zionist leaders and thinkers for a long period of time.

This is certainly something that was rectified in the 90s, when Israelis realized there's another group that seeks self determination and that we better stop denying them that.

The problem, ever since, has been in the agreement details, and the fact that it is unclear to us, what will happen after an agreement is signed - who will respect it, and will it end the conflict, or will be played for political gain.

[Sirotnikov]

interesting opinion piece, which reminds me of this thread

http://www.theonion.com/content/point/the_israeli_conflict_is_far_too

[Zevico]

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

Eww--a pro-Kach website. These guys are the Hamas of the Israelis: racist conspiracy theorists.

[snoopy369]

I will say that this was more a result of circumstance than other problems,
Most early zionist movements believed in a two state solution, some even considering a united federal government. Given the resentment the Zionist idea received (justly or unjustly), this view was abandoned by mainstream Zionist leaders and thinkers for a long period of time.

This is certainly something that was rectified in the 90s, when Israelis realized there's another group that seeks self determination and that we better stop denying them that.

The problem, ever since, has been in the agreement details, and the fact that it is unclear to us, what will happen after an agreement is signed - who will respect it, and will it end the conflict, or will be played for political gain.

I think even more crucial is the simple fact that Israel will inevitably be the superior in terms of the power relationship between the two states. It is impossible to imagine a Palestinian state that is anywhere near on par with Israel in terms of power; therefore they will always be insecure, and thus always will have Hamas-like organizations trying to address that insecurity. It would be similar if the United States decided to grant South Carolina its independence tomorrow; there's no way that power relationship would ever be positive.

The only solution to that is to either give over Palestinian territory to Egypt or Syria, or ... ???

[TCO]

I want the Germans to get froggy again. Third time in and we salt the earth. But they are our *****ez now.

[Sirotnikov]

Well done Tony Blair
Obviously his statements have caused deep self analysis within Hamas, which brought them to acknowledge the fault within their ways.

Hamas: Blair's statements 'stupid'
Despite touting Quartet envoy's statements that Hamas must be involved in Middle East peace process as proof of Europe's recognition of its power, Hamas outright rejects Blair's theory and the man himself as 'stupid and foolish'
Roee Nahmias

Quartet envoy Tony Blair's comments about the need to involve Hamas in the Middle Eastern dialogue are "worthless and stupid" but show that the world recognizes Hamas' strength, sources in the movement said Saturday.

Blair, in an interview with the London-based Times earlier Saturday, said that "it is important that we find a way of bringing Hamas into (the peace) process," but added that "it can only be done if Hamas are prepared to do it on the right terms," alluding to Quartet preconditions – recognition of Israel and renunciation of violence.

"Tony Blair's words prove that Europe and the world have understood that any efforts to remove Hamas from the Palestinian political arena have failed and that today we are the foremost force in this arena," Hamas parliament speaker Mushir al-Masri said in a published statement.

Al-Masri added that "the only way to deal with Palestinian issues and translate them into agreements is through Hamas."

But al-Masri went on to criticize the content of Blair's Saturday statements, namely the Quartet's conditions for engaging Hamas, calling them "worthless and stupid."

"This is a repetition of the same obstacles the West has put up before, as an excuse to reject Palestinian democracy, hinder the Palestinian people and allow the Zionist enemy to continue its crimes – the latest of which was the war in Gaza and the refusal to deal with the legitimate Palestinian government and parliament," he said.

"The reintroduction of such statements shows the stupidity of Blair and others who insist on such a useless proposal," he added.

The Hamas movement published a similar statement, saying that Blair's statement "was a repetition of a former plot. Attempts to involve (Hamas) in the peace process have failed and been rejected by the movement from the beginning, as well as by other Arab sources in the international community."

"These statements indicate that Hamas is, indeed, the main source of power in the Palestinian arena," the statement went on.

[Slaughtermeyer]

I was surprised to learn that Israel censors military info and even banned international reporters from conflict areas. Here is an underground site called Israeli Uncensored News http://samsonblinded.org/news which runs some very odd reports.

Not only does it censor info and ban reporters, the Israeli army has a policy of covering up its crimes. This policy was exposed when the Judge Advocate General's office made the mistake of attaching a copy of the results its own secret investigation into the killing of an 11 year old Palestinian child (Khalil al-Mughrabi) which differed from the version that was released for public consumption.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...007051,00.html

More recently, the IDF's lies about their justification for shelling the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp were exposed.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1231625457/

[MOBIUS]

So I notice we're back to square one again...

Siro, I think it's time for your army to kill more women and children again - because obviously it succeeded last time!