Latest Middle East Thread

[MOBIUS]

freedom of speech in sweden

Could have been worse, they could have used White Phosphorus on the Pro-Israeli march...

And no, obviously I don't condone this as it only plays in the hands of people like you who can paint these events as an excuse as to why it is necessary to kill hundreds of women and children for no reason whatsoever...

It also saddens me that Israel's actions in Palestine have endangered decent Jewish people (those not attending the march) around the world from an extremist minority.

[Sirotnikov]

Could have been worse, they could have used White Phosphorus on the Pro-Israeli march...

And no, obviously I don't condone this as it only plays in the hands of people like you who can paint these events as an excuse as to why it is necessary to kill hundreds of women and children for no reason whatsoever...

It also saddens me that Israel's actions in Palestine have endangered decent Jewish people (those not attending the march) around the world from an extremist minority.

I like how you don't condone it only because it plays in the hands of people like me, and not due to some, you know - moral backbone or respect for freedom of speech other than yours.

I also like how you seem to justify the fact that ignorant philistines takes their issues with the policies of the Israeli government and blames them on the local Jews.

You are not saddened by the actions of intolerant and bigoted racists against the Jews, rather you are saddened by the actions of the Israeli state, that "causes" 'decent Jews' to be persecuted.

This is classic new age anti-semitism Good stuff coming from you.

[SlowwHand]

Yeah, he's a hoot.

[MOBIUS]

I like how you don't condone it only because it plays in the hands of people like me, and not due to some, you know - moral backbone or respect for freedom of speech other than yours.

Hey freedom of speech is good, which is why I think it is a bad thing these guys were attacked, but don't let that fact ruin your attempts to twist my meaning...

I also like how you seem to justify the fact that ignorant philistines takes their issues with the policies of the Israeli government and blames them on the local Jews.

Ha, interesting that you use the term 'Philistine'...

Obviously, the extremist minority to which I referred will vent their anger on the nearest people they see to the Israeli govt. Israel is a self-proclaimed 'Jewish state' (and therefore inherently racist), so logically these people are going to be going after Jewish people they can reach - especially if those Jewish people openly indentify themselves as openly supporting Israel's pointless (because it achieved nothing useful) killing of women and children.

You are not saddened by the actions of intolerant and bigoted racists against the Jews, rather you are saddened by the actions of the Israeli state, that "causes" 'decent Jews' to be persecuted.

Putting words into my mouth again, real classy!

Not to mention a personal attack.

This is classic new age anti-semitism Good stuff coming from you.

Ah, another far worse personal attack! Keep them up, Siro! In fact I am surprised it's taken you this long to use it...

If the gloves are off, does that mean I am allowed to compare Israel's actions in Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto? Indeed, I do wonder just how bad the civilian death toll would have been if the eyes of the modern world hadn't been focussed on Gaza? Or if Bibi was already in power...?

Yeah, two can play at that game Siro, and I'd do well to STFU with that kind of mudslinging if I were you...

[MOBIUS]

Yeah, he's a hoot.

If you have nothing constructive to say, why not kindly **** off?

Your mere presence in this thread when all you contribute are snipey little remarks is like a personal attack to me.

[MOBIUS]

Congratulations, the BBC is now pro Israeli!

I guess all those decades of being branded Anti-Semitic by Israel has taken its toll...

[MOBIUS]

It wasn't the rockets - it was to blast Gaza into the Stone Age (and kill some civilians)

...as fresh evidence emerged of Israel's destruction of civilian infrastructure in Gaza, including the territory's largest concrete factory and the only operating flour mill - both of which are now in ruins.

As well as the heavy toll on human life, more than 21,000 buildings and apartments have been wholly or partly destroyed, including at least 219 major factories, among them several industrial sites, including food processing plants.

Palestinian surveyors said an initial estimate shows overall damage of $1.9bn. Israel's leaders insisted its war was against Hamas and its structures in Gaza. But much of Gaza's private industry had already been forced out of business by Israel's economic blockade over the past year and a half. The rest has now been severely damaged by war.

"They are destroying the infrastructure of the economy," said Amr Hamad, head of the Palestinian Federation of Industries. "They want us to be dependent on their economy."

The damage severely limits any hope of swift reconstruction and drives Gaza closer to complete aid dependency.

One of the most striking targets was the al-Badr flour mill in Sudaniya, in northern Gaza, built in the 1920s and the largest mill in the strip.

After Israel halted imports of wheat flour into Gaza in early November, al-Badr became the last operating mill in the territory because it had a large store of wheat. Before dawn on January 10 the mill's main production lines, spread over five floors, were destroyed by an Israeli air strike - half the bomb casing remains on the first floor - and by several shells, apparently fired from tanks and Apache helicopters.

Rashad Hammada, 55, co-owns the factory with his brother. Hammada said he believed there were no Palestinian fighters in the compound. He estimated his losses were at least $3m and that, even if new machinery could be imported, it would take six months to a year to build a new production line. Palestinian merchants are now forced to import refined wheat flour from Israel at 50% higher cost. "I'm really surprised with the Israelis. They encouraged us to build, and then they destroyed it," said Hammada.

A few miles away at the Abu Eida concrete factory, east of Jabaliya, the scene was even more desolate. All four of the company's factories for ready-mix concrete and breeze blocks were reduced to rubble. The factory - the largest concrete plant in Gaza - was a partner in an important northern Gaza sewage project supported by Tony Blair, the Middle East envoy.

Now the owner, Taysir Abu Eida, is facing losses of at least $10m, which include his three-storey house nearby in Jabal Rayas that was destroyed with six neighbouring houses, where many of his relatives once lived. Although the leading factories had insurance, there is no cover for war damage.

"Such widespread destruction of civilian economic infrastructure is surely a strike at the heart of attempts to bring peace," said Chris Gunness, spokesman for the UN agency for Palestinian refugees.

So I guess Siro was right after all, it wasn't to stop the rockets - it was to stop Gaza functioning full stop by blasting them back into the Stone Age!

What do you have to say about that, Siro?

[Felch]

WP smoke rounds are legal if used properly – the fact that 70+ people have DIED means that [b]they were not used properly and therefore USED ILLEGALLY!!!

How can you not accept this TOTALLY OBVIOUS CONCLUSION!!???

Who is the worthless scumbag that "taught" you logic?

I've got a bone to pick with someone.

Here's a quick lesson. You're wrong. Again.

Example of logic:

If a modern military like Israel were trying to kill everybody in a small area, there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of children left to go to school. There are 200,000 children expected to attend the schools (according to that BBC article you linked to). Therefore, Israel did not try to kill everybody.

You see, that's logic. But it completely escapes you because the Welsh school system failed you. Maybe if they quit teaching you guys fairy tales about how you discovered America and just stuck to reality you'd actually understand the world a bit better.

Seriously, you guys point to 500 civilian dead like it's astonishing. The RAF used to murder that many German civilians on a quiet night of indiscriminate bombings.

Take Dresden for example. The RAF intentionally used incendiary devices to murder as many civilians as possible, to destroy their shelter, and to terrorize a war weary population. Between 24,000 and 40,000 people were burned alive over the course of a couple days.

Here's a bit from Wikipedia's article on the Gaza Operation on this

Warnings

According to the Israeli government and the UN, there were widespread warnings of attacks in the form of telephone calls or leaflets dropped by the IDF to the people of Gaza.[137][138] In an attempt to reduce civilian casualties, Israel has employed what the IDF has named "roof knocking". Before a target is bombed, the building in question receives a telephone call in Arabic warning to evacuate the building. The procedure, which was used in the assassination of Nizar Rayan,[139][140] has been described as a form of "psychological warfare" by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights.

Following warnings, Hamas has asked residents to gather on rooftops in order to keep buildings from being bombed. The IAF has countered this tactic by firing dummy missiles designed specifically not to explode onto buildings in order to scare the residents into leaving, after which they can destroy the buildings.[141][138]

In addition, Israel warns civilian residents in areas where military operation is being escalated by dropping leaflets that read, "The IDF is not working against the people of Gaza but against Hamas and the terrorists only. Stay safe by following our orders." [142]The UN reported that in some cases the strikes occurred only five minutes after the flee call.[143] Given the high population density in Gaza and the proximity between their homes, this has caused considerable panic and uncertainty among residents. Both Amnesty International and the United Nations report that in the densely populated areas of Gaza there are no "safe" places for civilians.[144][145][146]

Notice the parts where the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights whines about residents being warned of attacks? Notice the part where it says that Hamas is encouraging residents to stand on targeted buildings to discourage IDF attacks? You side with these people? Because it sounds to me like the IDF are the good guys here.

Of course, if your RAF were bombing Gaza, there'd be no warnings, and no hesitation about killing residents to get the building beneath them. The RAF is a murderous war machine, and Dresden stands in mute testimony of this fact.

Don't you dare whine about links or sources. The article is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Operation. There are sources at the bottom.

[notyoueither]

Me? What, calling someone out as a liar? What about NYE's comment literally just above your post about whether I've burnt any Jews lately!!?

You can't be serious.

[Sirotnikov]

Obviously, the extremist minority to which I referred will vent their anger on the nearest people they see to the Israeli govt. Israel is a self-proclaimed 'Jewish state' (and therefore inherently racist), so logically these people are going to be going after Jewish people they can reach - especially if those Jewish people openly indentify themselves as openly supporting Israel's pointless (because it achieved nothing useful) killing of women and children.

I'm always pleasantly surprised at how you can get such intricate understanding and analysis of the different motivation behind people on one side (those who deplore Israel and usually Jews too),

Yet you choose to be incredibly thick-headed, arrogant and even violent when commenting on Israeli actions.

Where's your intricate analysis of the reasons Israel went to war? Of the way young, often misguided soldiers make mistakes in the heat of combat, under life-threatening conditions?

It's amazing how you can have such depth of analysis of people who hate Israel, people who openly declare (a misguided) hatred of Jews on one hand, and on the other hand, every action by the Israelis is described by you as a conspirative and fully intention war crime meant slaughter palestinians, and then lying about it.

I think it shows character. Don't you?

[Traianvs]

If only people would post short and concise posts, there would actually be a group discussion about the situation :/

[Sirotnikov]

Hey freedom of speech is good, which is why I think it is a bad thing these guys were attacked, but don't let that fact ruin your attempts to twist my meaning...

I haven't twisted anything.
here's exactly what you said:

I don't condone this as it only plays in the hands of people like you

Where exactly does it mention you respect the freedom of speech, for 'people like me'?

Putting words into my mouth again, real classy!

Not to mention a personal attack.

I'm not putting words into your mouth.
It appears you think that repeating your own words to you is a personal attack. Imagine how I feel when I read the original. :O

here's what you said:

It also saddens me that Israel's actions in Palestine have endangered decent Jewish people (those not attending the march) around the world from an extremist minority.

It seems you put the blame on jew hating on jews - those in Israel, and those supporting the attacks.

It also can be read, that only decent jewish people, in your mind, are those who share your opinion. If you feel differently, I'd like to hear

Ah, another far worse personal attack! Keep them up, Siro! In fact I am surprised it's taken you this long to use it...

I was talking about your arguments. Not your person.

I haven't raised the point earlier because your previous posts, no matter how awful, were indeed dealing with Israeli actions.

I felt the need to raise it when you refrained from condemning the intention of people who violently interrupted a democratic peaceful rally and didn't criticize them for their behavior, and following that, basically blamed jew hating on Israel and Israeli actions.

I'll repeat that this is not my personal view or interpretation of what anti-semitism is.

Look at this recent article from a British Sociology professor from the university of Kent.
I doubt you can argue against his prejudice, as he's not Jews and certainly not pro-Israeli.

http://www.frankfuredi.com/index.php/site/article/282/

Here he talks about left wingers rationalizing and ignoring vile anti-Jewish sentiment

Those who are active in left-wing politics are unlikely to hold coherent anti-Jewish prejudices. Nonetheless, one disturbing development in recent years has been the reluctance of left-wing anti-Israel protesters to challenge explicit manifestations of anti-Semitism. This accommodation to prejudice is often motivated by moral cowardice. Others try to justify their failure to challenge anti-Semitism by arguing that criticising the prejudices held by some Muslim youth will only let Israel off the hook. Some suggest that Israel’s behaviour relieves Europeans of any moral obligation to empathise with Jews or Jewish sensibilities. Such an outlook was unambiguously expressed by the Italian trade unionist Desiderati, who said that ‘for 50 years we have been concerned for the Jews because of what they suffered in the Holocaust, but now it is time be concerned for the Palestinians, who are the Jews of today’ (6).

The most worrying dynamic in Europe today is not the explicit vitriol directed against Jews by radical Muslim groups or far-right parties, but the new culture of accommodation to anti-Semitism. We can see the emergence of a slightly embarrassed ‘see nothing, hear nothing’ attitude that shows far too much ‘understanding’ towards expressions of anti-Semitism. Typically, the response to anti-Jewish prejudice is to argue that it is not anti-Semitic, just anti-Israeli. Sometimes even politically correct adherents to the creeds of diversity and anti-racism manage to switch off when it comes to confronting anti-Jewish comments.
[...]

and this piece questioning whether anti-Jewish sentiment has something to do with Israeli actions

The most interesting example of the rise of European anti-Semitism is Spain. Spain is the only European country where negative views of Jews (held by 46 per cent of respondents to a survey) appear to outweigh positive ones (37 per cent) (7).

Since Spain has a tiny Jewish population – fewer than 20,000 – it is unlikely that attitudes towards this minority are based on any experience of interacting with them. [...] This sentiment is inadvertently fostered by the Spanish Socialist government of José Luis RodrÃguez Zapatero, which is profoundly hostile to Israel, and by the Spanish media’s frequent reluctance to distinguish between Israel and Jewish people. Cartoons that are critical of Israel in Spanish newspapers and magazines sometimes depict medieval anti-Semitic caricatures. At a dinner party in late 2005, Zapatero let rip against Israel. He was overheard saying: ‘Es que a veces hasta se entiende que haya gente que puede justificar el holocausto.’ In English: ‘At times one can even understand that there might be people who could justify the Holocaust.’ (10)

Negative Spanish attitudes towards Jewish people have little to do with Jews themselves, or with any widespread support for the Palestinian people. Indeed, surveys indicate that negative attitudes towards Jews rarely translate into positive attitudes towards Muslims: 52 per cent of Spanish respondents indicated that they rate Muslims unfavourably, too (11). So although Zapatero and some of his Socialist colleagues sometimes walk around wearing Palestinian scarves, the public does not share their enthusiasm for this political cause. Rather, it is a sense of diffuse frustration, a feeling that we live in an uncertain and unpredictable world, which underpins people’s incoherent hostility towards those apparent beneficiaries of the global economy: caricatured Americans and Jews.

As in Spain, so elsewhere in Europe there is considerable evidence that anti-Jewish sentiment has been on the rise for some time, and that it is fuelled by cultural factors that have little to do with events in Gaza. Over the past two decades, and particularly since 2001, anti-Western feeling amongst European Muslims has often been expressed through the language of anti-Semitism. Denunciations of America are frequently accompanied by attacks on the alleged influence of the Jewish Lobby. Such attitudes are gaining momentum in our new century.

And to your recent post comparing Gaza with Warsaw I can only quote this:

The metamorphosis of anti-Israel feeling into anti-Jewish feeling has been paralleled by a growing tendency to detach the Holocaust from its historical context. [...]

For some time, many critics of Israel have argued that its treatment of Palestinians is comparable to the behaviour of the Nazis towards the Jews. [...] Over the past five years, the rhetorical strategy of associating Israel with Hitler’s Final Solution has become more widespread. It is through Holocaust comparisons and imagery that the critics of Zionism increasingly make sense of the conflict in the Middle East. As a result, protesters against the current invasion of Gaza frequently portray Israel as a twenty-first century Nazi war machine. From this standpoint, the people of Gaza are facing a predicament similar to that experienced by the inhabitants of the Jewish Ghettos of 1930s and 1940s Europe. This point was forcefully made by the former mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, who said the Israelis ‘will continue to create a Warsaw Ghetto in the Middle East’.

Critics of Israel, some unconsciously, others consciously, try to turn the symbolic authority of the Holocaust against Israel. They frequently accuse the Israeli government of acting like Nazis. Respectable media outlets in the West now regularly claim that Israel is engaged in ‘ethnic cleansing’, ‘genocide’, ‘crimes against humanity’; some critics liken Theodor Herzl, the founding father of Zionism, to Adolf Hitler.Israeli or Jewish complicity with the Israeli government’s war crimes is said by some to be even more comprehensive than the complicity of the German people with the crimes of the Nazis. Some talk of the ‘Nazification’ of Israeli society, suggesting a role reversal, whereby Jews become the twenty-first century equivalent of their former oppressors.

The cumulative impact of decoupling the Holocaust from its association with the Jewish experience is to encourage a cynical, questioning attitude towards Jewish victimhood; it inflames an interrogation of the status of Jews as the victims of the Nazi experience. There is evidence that the association of Jewishness with war crimes today is used to read history backwards, so that this people comes to bear responsibility for what happened during the Holocaust. According to one interesting study of anti-Semitism in Europe, prejudices are ‘projected backwards to justify behaviour towards Jews in past conflicts’. The study says that ‘in this context, anti-Semitic arguments today frequently serve the purpose of rejecting guilt and responsibility for the persecutions of the Jews [in the past]’ [...]

[b]The attempt by the enemies of Israel to appropriate the symbolism of the Holocaust is underpinned by a realisation that this tragedy can be wielded to win significant moral authority.[b] At the same time, the project of reinventing Israel as a latter-day Nazi war machine implicitly incites the rewriting of the past.

[MOBIUS]

If only people would post short and concise posts, there would actually be a group discussion about the situation :/

OK, five minute summary.

Gaza War 2008-2009

Israel precipitated the conflict by breaking the ceasefire on Nov 4th when it killed 6 Palestinians in Gaza territory, thus provoking a response of rocket fire by Hamas.

Israel further exacerbated the situation by not upholding its side of the ceasefire bargain by removing the economic blockade of Gaza (note: This blockade has nothing to do with the supply of weapons, in fact merely forces that issue 'underground' (excuse pun!) as Hamas receives these through the tunnels anyway - therefore the blockade is wholly irrelevant as anything other than to subject the population of Gaza as a whole to 'collective punishment').

Hamas in the face of Israeli assassination attacks and complete intransigence over the pointless (for the stated reason) blockade felt compelled not to renew the ceasefire - although it was already in tatters anyway.

Israel then blitzes Gaza into the Stone Age, killing hundreds of women and children, attacking dozens of UN schools/buildings (including the UN HQ), hospitals, ambulances, and virtually any building representing the local government or of economic value - much of this was done through the illegal and indiscriminate use of WP munitions which alone are reported to have burned 70+ civilians to death and permanently disfigured countless others (AKA war crimes).

None of Israel's stated objectives were achieved: Preventing Hamas rockets, destroying Hamas, destroying the tunnels etc. Which can only lead to the assumption that either they failed totally, or that other objectives such as utterly wrecking the last vestiges of the Gazan economic infrastructure not already choked into submission by the blockade was the real desired outcome.

Now that western journalists have finally been allowed in, the truth is starting to come out...



Discuss

[MOBIUS]

I haven't twisted anything.
here's exactly what you said:

Where exactly does it mention you respect the freedom of speech, for 'people like me'?


I'm not putting words into your mouth.
It appears you think that repeating your own words to you is a personal attack. Imagine how I feel when I read the original. :O

here's what you said:

It seems you put the blame on jew hating on jews - those in Israel, and those supporting the attacks.

It also can be read, that only decent jewish people, in your mind, are those who share your opinion. If you feel differently, I'd like to hear


I was talking about your arguments. Not your person.

I haven't raised the point earlier because your previous posts, no matter how awful, were indeed dealing with Israeli actions.

I felt the need to raise it when you refrained from condemning the intention of people who violently interrupted a democratic peaceful rally and didn't criticize them for their behavior, and following that, basically blamed jew hating on Israel and Israeli actions.

I'll repeat that this is not my personal view or interpretation of what anti-semitism is.

Look at this recent article from a British Sociology professor from the university of Kent.
I doubt you can argue against his prejudice, as he's not Jews and certainly not pro-Israeli.

http://www.frankfuredi.com/index.php/site/article/282/

Here he talks about left wingers rationalizing and ignoring vile anti-Jewish sentiment



and this piece questioning whether anti-Jewish sentiment has something to do with Israeli actions





And to your recent post comparing Gaza with Warsaw I can only quote this:

Yep, faced with losing the propaganda battle on all fronts Siro has completely sidestepped any pretence of actually defending Israel's war crimes and utter destruction of Gaza by playing the ANTI-SEMITE card...

Yes, the 'victim' who slaughters 100 of the enemy for each one of him when he was never in any real danger in the first place and saying it's not his fault!

implicitly incites the rewriting of the past.

In what way? The leaders of Israel it seems have learned the lessons of the holocaust extremely well. The ultimate tragedy is that Hitler was also the worst thing that ever happened to the Palestinians, because without him embarking on 'The Final Solution' the nation of Israel would likely still be a pipe dream of a bunch of oddballs bleating on about 'Zionism' from the dark recesses of polite Jewish society...

[Sirotnikov]

the nation of Israel would likely still be a pipe dream of a bunch of oddballs bleating on about 'Zionism' from the dark recesses of polite Jewish society...

oh, I'm so sorry we're not a well-behaved polite polite people as you'd have us, and that we have pathetic (and evil!) claims for self-determination

I only hope we someday achieve the right for self-determination, as promised to every people by the UN charter and modern political thought, in your eyes too. *sniff* *sod*