Latest Middle East Thread

[Naked Gents Rut]

Name one.

I'll even name one involving Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_decree

edit: And here's one with Arabs forcing out Palestinians!

http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20War%20Complete/Chapter%2010,%20Palestinians%20in%20Kuwait,%20Terror%20and%20Ethnic%20Cleansing,%20By%20Hassan%20A%20El-Najjar.htm

[GePap]

Name one.

I'll even name one involving Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_decree

Given that the Jewish people were already in "exile", the moving from one place of exile to another is the best you could come up with? Yeah, next you mention the Roma. EDIT (or Palestinians, same difference )

Lets add to that of course that a pre-Westphalia example ignores the new attitudes towards soverignty that have made movements of people much more constrained in modern times, and that there were willing recipients of the population back in 1492.

Can you find me an example of a movement of people from their "homeland" into an area that did not want them (if you think any of the neighboring Arab states would accept more Palestinians without war, then you are really divorced from reality) by a power that did not happen to control that piece of land, because that is what would be entailed by your "solution".

[Naked Gents Rut]

And here come the excuses...

[GePap]

You haven't posted an argument against the obvious practial issues I have brough up, only given examples that bear no resemblence to the situation on the ground.

Explain how the removal of the Palestinian population from Palestine would work, and where exactly would they end up, and how that could be achieved without:

1. Regional war between Israel and its direct Arab neighbors
2. The ostracising of the Israeli state and a collapse of its international relations with other states.

[Naked Gents Rut]

You haven't posted an argument against the obvious practial issues I have brough up

I don't feel the need to. All I wanted to do was show that the two contentions on what is and isn't possible in terms of ethnic transfer that supported your "practical issues" didn't make any sense and that there were historical counter-examples that argued against it. You asked for some and I provided them. Point made.

I could now get into an in-depth discussion with you now about how Israel might remove the Palestinians from the Occupied Territories, but it really doesn't interest me. You clearly don't know much about transfer and related topics, so why would I waste my time educating you on the subject? I'd prefer to do something else and talk to TCO later when he's around.

[GePap]

Either put up or shut up, as they say.

If you can't decribe what your "solution" might look like, then clearly it is nothing more than a troll.

[Saras]

Heh, Quadaffi says "final solution" in the first sentence

[Dr Strangelove]

No, he said final resolution.

He fails to address the problem of restitution of property and the how to pull off the return of displaced Palestinians without hopelessly swamping the area with a sudden population increase. How many Palestinians are currently living in other countries? 4 million, 5 million?

His treatment of the Israelis is unusually gracious for an Arab leader, He acknowledges their historic claim and their past persecution. He even absolves them of forcibly removing the Palestinians from their homes.

[Kidlicious]

I doubt you, or anyone in in this forum, includig myself and any other former soldier here, are qualified to distinguish WP wounds from other burn wounds caused by normal bombs.

That, and the fact that a single WP victim does not prove the claim that Israel has employed WP incendiary shells. This could be explained as people who were burnt by a legal, WP smoke shell, as I'm sure is possible.

It would be very sad, but it would not justify the claim that Israel uses WP incendiary weapons.

Your own articles talk about about a dozen people injured by suspected WP wounds. Even if it is WP wounds as opposed to other things, such a low number does not suggest WP incendiary use, but rather use of lawful, and mostly harmless WP smoke, with several unintentional casualties.

No. I'm not qualified, but healthcare professionals treating these patients are and their the ones making the claims.

People here will make up their own minds. I'm not claiming to be an expert, and even if I were I wouldn't expect people to hold my opinions just because of it. I'm just letting people decide for themselves.

[Sirotnikov]

It took the Jews only around 200 years after Nebuchadnezzar. So the effectiveness varies with time, if it was effective at all.

That was due to an intentional policy by the Persian kingdom to support minority's rights for worship and autonomy, and the country was not really fully sovereign for a long period of time.

[Sirotnikov]

No. I'm not qualified, but healthcare professionals treating these patients are and their the ones making the claims.

Which is why an article with quotes from the doctors would be best, since people could judge it, instead of pictures that cause lots of emotion, but provide little value.

As far as I recall even the Norwegian doctor who was quoted by an article you posted earlier, said he had not witnessed any WP injuries himself, but relies on hearsay by Palestinian officials.

I hate to discredit Palestinian medical professionals, but I would like the reading audience to be reminded that false claims have been made in the past, as part of media warfare.

[Sirotnikov]

Why do you do it, Siro!?
First you claimed WP wasn't even being used, then you claimed it was harmless (which would be ROTFLMAO if the injuries it actually DOES cause weren't so horrific!), then you said it wasn't being used as a weapon but only as a smoke screen...

Don't you see how your story keeps changing as posters here peel away each falsehood that spews forth from your fingertips.

I know that mortal logic is beyond you, and given how you like reading my posts, I invite you to read them again, to realize what I really said.

You can't pretend that you don't know what WP does, because you have been in the IDF, so I can only conclude that you are 'deliberately trying to mislead us'!

I'm glad you appreciate that I'm knowledgeable in military affairs, but I'm having a tough time following your dedicated repositioning of my post in the Army.

In your posts, I find myself constantly re-stationed between the IDF spokesperson, 'intelligence corps', 'intelligence corps propoganda', IDF chief of staff war room, and now, apparently, ordnance corps. I'm truly honored by your appreciation of my skill and my fast rise up the ranks that apparently follows.

Also, why the single quotes around the accusation that I deliberately mislead you? Are you quoting someone?

I mean, right here is a picture of civilians being attacked by White Phosphorus!!!



Palestinian civilians and medical staff run for cover during an Israeli strike at a UN school in Beit Lahiya. White phosphorus is legal if fired to create a smokescreen on the battlefield

I would REALLY like to see you try and defend this incident!

I have no reason to defend this incident. I find shooting at the UN school wrong, and I've clearly said so earlier.

Regarding the weapons used, there's an ongoing investigation, as reported by your own article, and as reported earlier by Israeli media.
There's a video available of the same area attacked:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7841406.stm

To me it seems much less fiery than your still picture.

Clearly I'm not positioned in the ordnance corps long enough to distinguish between incendiary WP rounds and smoke WP rounds.

If you'd be so kind to grant me absolute knowledge of the IDF WP investigative team in your next post, I'll see what I can dig up, mmmkay?

The Times, Siro - not some left wing paper, but one owned by the same guy that owns Fox News in the US!!!

I fail to see your point as the same information was reported first by Israeli newspapers, internet sites and news channels.

This is information I learned nd stated in public (actually, upon review, it was stated in a private PM to Kid who can verify this):

I heard from inside sources that the reports raised concern and directives were issued mid-operation to review the weaponry used, to make sure that indeed incendiary charges were not, and would not be used. The press now reported that the IDF opened an inquiry to check if there was a breach.

If improper fire indeed occured, I hope it will be investigated and the perpetrators will be punished.

Mind you, the Israel, as well as Palestinian claim focus on few incidents of civilians getting hurt by it.

The total number of people hurt by WP is described between 10 in a dozen articles, to "dozens" in a dozen different articles. This without indication of whether they were hurt by use of improper WP or were they affected by legal applications of smoke generating WP (that also can have casualties).



Meanwhile, here's a report on Hamas behavior during the siege, and the death toll as told by an Italian reporter in Corriere della Sera. Specifically his death toll claims are contested by Israel as well as the Pals.

Italian paper: Gazans say Hamas kept them in homes used by gunmen
By Haaretz Service
Tags: Israel, Hamas, Gaza

Palestinian civilians have accused Hamas of forcing them to stay in homes from which gunmen shot at Israeli soldiers during the recent hostilities in Gaza, the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera reported Thursday.

More than 1,250 Palestinians were reportedly killed during Israel's offensive against Hamas in the coastal territory. Israel has been harshly criticized for the large number of civilians among the Palestinian dead, of whom they numbered more than half according Gaza officials.

But the Italian paper also quoted a doctor at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital as disputing the number of Palestinians said to have been killed in the campaign.

"It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas - who sent them to their deaths," he said.

13 Israelis were also killed during the 3-week operation, which was aimed at halting rocket fire on southern Israel and destroying Hamas' infrastructure.

The Gaza doctor was further quoted as saying: "Perhaps it is like Jenin in 2002. At the beginning they spoke about 1,500 dead, and at the end it turned out to be only 54 - of whom 45 were militants."

He was referring to the Israel Defense Forces battle with Palestinian militants in the West Bank town that took place during Operation Defensive Shield at the height of the second intifada.

Top IDF officer: Hamas made 'monstrous' use of children during Gaza op

The IDF Gaza Division Commander on Thursday, meanwhile, branded Hamas' use of women and children during the offensive in Gaza as "monstrous" and "inhumane."

Brig. Gen. Eyal Eisenberg said the civilians were sent by Hamas to transfer weapons to gunmen during the offensive. He also accused the Islamist militant group of booby-trapping many of the civilians' homes.

"Entire families in Gaza lived on top of a barrel of explosives for months without knowing," Eisenberg said.

The officer asserted that despite international calls for investigations into alleged war crimes, the Israel Defense Forces soldiers adhered to moral principles while fighting in Gaza.

Here's a a google translated version of the article:
http://translate.google.com/translat...istory_state0=

Here's the Israeli response to the article claims

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1232292939271&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Almost a week after the end of Operation Cast Lead, Israel is privately vehemently contesting Palestinian figures for the number of civilians killed, but has released no official figures on the overall death toll, or on the proportion of civilians and Hamas operatives among the fatalities.

Italian media confirms Gazan medic's report that only 500 killed in operation, mostly Hamas gunmen

IDF Military Intelligence has set up a team to produce a comprehensive list of Palestinian fatalities, including their names and affiliation. It will be completed within two weeks, officials said, but it is not clear whether it will be made public.

Privately, throughout the operation and since, Israeli officials have disputed "official" Palestinian figures for the number of civilians killed in the 22-day assault on Hamas in Gaza, insisting that the Hamas Health Ministry, the source of those figures, has significantly inflated the civilian death toll and played down the number of Hamas operatives killed. There is also growing controversy as to the accuracy of the overall count, put by the Hamas ministry at 1,314.

The ministry said the majority of the fatalities were civilians, including 412 children and 110 women. The Palestinian count also shows 5,300 wounded, including 1,855 children and 795 women.

The IDF privately told Israeli reporters Thursday, by contrast, that only 150 of the 900 fatalities it has checked were civilians and that it was likely that the rest were Hamas combatants. But Israel has presented no formal alternative information.

[...]
Cremonesi's report on the Gaza dead was ridiculed by Jaber Wishah, the deputy director of the PCHR, during a telephone interview from Gaza on Thursday with The Jerusalem Post.

"It is completely incorrect," Wishah said. His organization had 45 field workers posted at hospitals and morgues, counting bodies and checking names, he said. They had also gone to the sites of IDF attacks and interviewed the families of the dead, he said.

A lengthy but incomplete report on the group's Web site lists names, ages, and circumstances of death.

In total, Wishah said, his organization - which is independent of both Hamas and Fatah - counted 1,285 dead. Of those, 82 percent, or 1,062, were civilians, he said, while another 168 were policemen who were not engaged in the fighting. That would leave barely 50 Hamas dead - a figure almost identical to Hamas's own claims. He added that among the dead were 280 children and 111 women.

He insisted that although Israel has argued that many of the "civilian" fatalities were actually Hamas fighters who were out of uniform, those people listed as "civilians" in his total were not Hamas operatives.

[...]
The IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration has compiled a list with 900 names of Palestinians killed during the operation, out of which 750, it says, are believed to be Hamas operatives.

IDF estimates are that two-thirds of all those killed were gunmen affiliated with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terror factions.

[...]
The IDF's unofficial death count was not welcomed by the Foreign Ministry, which continues to state that it lacks any such figures.

One Foreign Ministry official warned that the IDF should be very careful about circulating a number for casualties, adding that the only figures about which the Foreign Ministry could be certain were for gunmen killed in direct battle with the IDF.

[...]

Foreign Ministry spokesman Andy David said he did not believe a death count prepared by Israel would be useful from a public relations standpoint.

"We understand that public relations is not about facts. It is about mental attitude. Those who are supportive of Israel will continue to support Israel. I do not think that Israel has done things that other countries would not do," David said.

Opponents of Israel would always find a way to blame it and accuse it of wrongdoing, he said.

[...]

[Sirotnikov]

The disappearence of Israel would be an end to the conflict, would it not?

I'm glad you consider it a viable option that the international community should strive for.

1. Acceptance of the legitimacy of Israel's pre-67 borders is movement towards the Israeli position by Palestinians.

BZZZT
This is not a change since 1994.
It's a fundamental change that allowed the whole process to start.
If we go by that standard you could say that acceptance of the legitimacy of the Palestinian claim for autonomy is also an incredible movement towards the Palestinian position.

I clearly meant new positions taken since the start of the Oslo discussions on major issues that I've set out.

2. This is actually not the case, as in the last set of negotiations in 2000 there was movement by the PLA to accept a land swap.

As far as I know there was constant disagreement about this, and in any case they demand 100% of the territory, while Israel changed their position several times, constantly increasing the number.

This does not demonstrate Palestinian readiness to compromise. You may see no such need from a moral POV, but that does not dispute the fact that my statement is correct - The Palestinian positions on central issues have not changed.

- right of return for Palestinian refugees to Israel proper

Again, not the case as of the last negotiations in 2000. The Palestinians wanted some people to return, but were willing to accept reparations fo the vast majority.

Which is not a change from any earlier position they presented.

- full control of east jerusalem as their capitol and rule of temple mount

Well, given that East Jerusalem is beyond the 1967 borders of Israel, the status of East Jerusalem is up for negotiations. That the Palestinians refuse to accept Israel's claim over the Palestinian portion of Jerusalem is not a hard line position.

Doesn't matter if it is hardline or not or if you see eye to eye with it.

The Palestinian position hasn't moved. The Israeli has.

The legal and recognized entity that was supposed to hold control over waters, airspace and border crossings was uprooted and replaced by Hamas.

Israel never surrendered this control after the pullout in 2005. For Israel to have granted the PLA control over the airspace and territorial waters of Gaza would have been the same as accepting complete Palestinian independence and soverignty over Gaza - ie, the creation of a Palestinian mini-state. Israel did no such thing.

The point is that what ever mechanism was supposed to legally hold these rights in a perfect scenario, no longer exists, and in his place exists a bunch of terrorist thugs.

Gaza is not a state. It is not recognized as a state by anyone, nor does it claim to be an independent state.

The word state was used loosly to mean a foreign hostile self-governed entity. *sigh* I'm glad we're really discussing the issues, and not semantics...

[Sirotnikov]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6117/

read the second half.

[MOBIUS]

I know that mortal logic is beyond you, and given how you like reading my posts, I invite you to read them again, to realize what I really said.

Well, just on WP alone you refused to admit Israel was even using them, then it was OK to use them because it was just to create smoke - THEN you claimed that WP is virtually harmless!!!

So, yeah, I realise what you really said: Lies.

I'm glad you appreciate that I'm knowledgeable in military affairs, but I'm having a tough time following your dedicated repositioning of my post in the Army.

In your posts, I find myself constantly re-stationed between the IDF spokesperson, 'intelligence corps', 'intelligence corps propoganda', IDF chief of staff war room, and now, apparently, ordnance corps. I'm truly honored by your appreciation of my skill and my fast rise up the ranks that apparently follows.

IIRC you said when you started your military service you were an officer in IDF Intelligence. That's all I've said really apart from the fact that I may have dubbed you 'Comical Avi' (the Israeli version of Comical Ali, the Iraqi Information Minister) for your increasingly fantastic attempts at denying the undeniable, and defending the indefensible. I did opine that indeed such was your performance, that perhaps you were grooming yourself to take over from Mark Regev, who seems to be the person Israel has chosen as a conduit for the Jewish State's lies to the UK media...

Also, why the single quotes around the accusation that I deliberately mislead you? Are you quoting someone?

Ming said to avoid the personal attacks and I thought that calling you a bare-faced pathological liar, might be deemed as a personal attack by him. So I couched it in more palatable terms. Anyway, you did ask, so I figure it is only fair to tell you now.

I have no reason to defend this incident. I find shooting at the UN school wrong, and I've clearly said so earlier.

Er no, you basically justified it (so basically saying it was OK) by saying Hamas was using it as a firing position. And it is not just 'the' UN School - it is UN Schools, hospitals, the UN HQ, ambulances, even the Hamas ostriches in Gaza Zoo we massacred! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5570052.ece

Even when Isreal attacked the first (of many!) school, it used 'video evidence' to 'prove' that Hamas were firing from there - until the UN provided its own evidence to prove Israel was lying. Then it became an 'unfortunate accident'.

Regarding the weapons used, there's an ongoing investigation, as reported by your own article, and as reported earlier by Israeli media.
There's a video available of the same area attacked:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7841406.stm

To me it seems much less fiery than your still picture.

Yeah, I clearly photoshopped the Times' picture and sent it in to them to use.

Clearly I'm not positioned in the ordnance corps long enough to distinguish between incendiary WP rounds and smoke WP rounds.

Ha! My name is Siro and I'm pretending to be thick.

Sorry, doesn't wash. Whatever I may think you are, you are far too clever for me to actually believe you really mean that you don't know what the WP situation is in your army. Christ, it only took me about 10 minutes to research it...

I fail to see your point as the same information was reported first by Israeli newspapers, internet sites and news channels.

You are notoriously selective as to which sources of news you're prepared to accept, as you constantly denounce the Guardian, Independent and even the BBC as being biased against Israel. The Times, being a right-wing paper has no such bias and its stories are just as damning!

This is information I learned nd stated in public (actually, upon review, it was stated in a private PM to Kid who can verify this):

Well, obviously I'm supposed to be bugging your PMs with Kid now!

If improper fire indeed occured, I hope it will be investigated and the perpetrators will be punished.

So, what do you think the appropriate punishment for the war crime of firing WP shells into a known civilian target resulting in the gruesome and barbaric deaths of women and children?

The total number of people hurt by WP is described between 10 in a dozen articles, to "dozens" in a dozen different articles. This without indication of whether they were hurt by use of improper WP or were they affected by legal applications of smoke generating WP (that also can have casualties).

How about 60 to 70 patients had died in his unit during the war from severe burns that were unlike any injury he had previously seen

That's just the ones burned alive by the phosphorus, dozens more must have been injured!

Also Siro, if civilians have been killed by WP - that constitutes improper use! In fact, it's a war crime...

But at least you now admit that using WP 'can have casualties, so I suppose that is progress on your part.

Meanwhile, here's a report...

As for Hamas using human shields, so apparently did Israel. It has done so in the past after all...

I noticed this in your article though: "which was aimed at halting rocket fire on southern Israel and destroying Hamas' infrastructure"

I thought you said that wasn't the aim of the Israeli attack?

Yes, I ignored your articles on casualties - they are notoriously difficult to put together during battle, perhaps if there were independent witnesses (western journalists) we'd have a clearer picture - oh wait, Israel banned them! Why was that Siro? What does Israel have to hide...?

The truth will come out, as it already is, it could be less Gazan casualties - it could be more...


What were Israel's aims again in this war it started by breaking the original ceasefire on November 4th, Siro?

Because the rockets weren't stopped.

The tunnels are open again (or at least not many were destroyed)

Weapons and missiles are being smuggled in again.

Hamas is stronger. In fact if there were an election today, Fatah would lose the West Bank!

Apart from killing women and children with WP, the attack didn't really work did it?