I really, really hate smokers

[Ben Kenobi]

talking about how gay people don't commit to monogamy at all to a person who is well-known as a committed, monogamous gay person

The response was to Elok, who I prefaced the post by comparing his question to one I had asked myself back in 2000. AFAIK, Elok is similar to where I was then, a Christian, and so my reply was directed to him as an answer to the question that he asked. My answer wasn't the same as the one I got back in 2000, that answer is a rather different one that I'm not going to get into now.

It wasn't directed to you at all.

I could give you all the full answer I got in 2000 if you are interested.

[DaShi]

Actually, I've noticed that the moderation here is very biased against homosexuals and in favor of people with more conservative views.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, he knows the truth and he knows the issue, he just intentionally lies because he disagrees with and abhors homosexuality for many reasons.

Mind if I ask what you perceive those reasons to be?

I think Poly folks would have a much different opinion of me had they known me back in 2000, and from before. I can and do change over time. You folks here have seen from when I left the Mennonite church to become a Catholic. I can be persuaded by reason, like I said most of the arguments here are one's I've been presented already and rejected for various reasons.

If you wish to go, that's your choice Asher. Best of luck.

[Asher]

Let me put it to you this way - and I'll do this just once, if you want to ignore me, fine.

At one point, the moderation on this site was very much more strict, and we would almost certainly have banned a lot more people a lot more regularly, for stuff like this, and others. This would be in the time of MtG, from what I hear (that's pre-me posting in OTF), and UR, among others. We were told we were 'too strict' and should allow 'freedom of speech', whatever that is.

So now, we lightened up, and allow people to say pretty much whatever they want, as long as (give or take):
1. It does not directly insult a poster excessively
2. It does not incite riots
3. It's not about illegal stuff

And we have been REALLY lenient with 1., particularly in your case, because it's been made clear that people don't mind a bit of insulting as long as it doesn't go too far.

If Ben were saying, "Da** you to hell, you ***", then sure, he'd be banned.

But this is where you guys are missing the point! I wouldn't even mind if Ben did this, in fact I would prefer it.

Because what Ben is skilled at doing is more deeply insulting people than with superficial names, and he does it all with a smile that seems to fool most of you.

Names don't bother me at all, what does bother me is to see people intentionally and continually lobby with blatant lies and slander to a minority group to politik his way in trying to convince others to agree with him.

To me, this is an order of magnitude worse than simple name calling. Name-calling is superficial, but when someone's hatred and insults go far deeper than that -- let's say, for example, talking about how gay people don't commit to monogamy at all to a person who is well-known as a committed, monogamous gay person -- that it goes too far. I'm afraid the administration on this site isn't connecting the dots here.

What Ben does now is far more offensive to more people than if he just called everyone *** like faded glory did.

So grow a thicker skin and let Ben show how ignorant he is, or else leave and admit you can't take it. Whichever.

It's not that I can't take it, I can -- but you guys can't take it when I hit back. I'm not going to play this game handcuffed because the Administration on this site is apparently incapable of understanding how offensive Ben is being.

The best thing to do is to cut my losses. Ben's going to keep posting here and you guys are going to let him continue to lie, slander, and insult all homosexuals with his polite smile, so there's really no point in staying 'round here for that. It's a shame because I do like the site overall, and I've grown to like most of the people here, but it's not worth it. Every time Ben posts his anti-gay slander it sets me off, and he does it with alarming regularity. As long as you are ignorant to how offensive he is with his comments, it demonstrates an administrative immaturity of this site and it's not one I will continue to patron.

It's not just me, you can PM and discuss this in private with the other homosexuals on this site. I'm honestly positive you guys don't realize how offensive this is, even after I've tried to make it clear. And that's just a shame.

[snoopy369]

Let me put it to you this way - and I'll do this just once, if you want to ignore me, fine.

At one point, the moderation on this site was very much more strict, and we would almost certainly have banned a lot more people a lot more regularly, for stuff like this, and others. This would be in the time of MtG, from what I hear (that's pre-me posting in OTF), and UR, among others. We were told we were 'too strict' and should allow 'freedom of speech', whatever that is.

So now, we lightened up, and allow people to say pretty much whatever they want, as long as (give or take):
1. It does not directly insult a poster excessively
2. It does not incite riots
3. It's not about illegal stuff

And we have been REALLY lenient with 1., particularly in your case, because it's been made clear that people don't mind a bit of insulting as long as it doesn't go too far.

If Ben were saying, "Da** you to hell, you ***", then sure, he'd be banned. At least from what I've read, he doesn't; he states his opinion that homosexuality is a sin, and bothers him. It's an ignorant opinion in my opinion, but that's the thing about free speech: if you want to be free to say your opinions, ignorant or not, other people have to be able to do so as well, as long as they aren't causing actual harm to others.

So grow a thicker skin and let Ben show how ignorant he is, or else leave and admit you can't take it. Whichever.

[Ming]

Your choice... We won't be changing our opinion on this issue.
There is a fine line between open and free discussion of the issues and racism and hatred.
You can see it one way, and others will see it another.

I just find it interesting that you find it ok to be offensive to others, but when the shoe is on the other foot, you get on your high horse and whine like a stuck pig.

So enjoy where ever you are going to post in the future. I'm sure they will "enjoy" your style of posting.

[snoopy369]

You know about the ignore feature, right?

[Asher]

Asher... many people are personally disgusted with the way you treat people... they either ignore you or challenge your facts. As long as people do it in a civil fashion, discusion is allowed.

If you wish to leave... fine. That's your choice.
But like we tell everybody. If you have a problem with a person's argument, attack the argument, prove them wrong. Make them look like the ignorant fools they are by proving them wrong. If you can't do that, then maybe you should leave.

You know as well as I do there's no reasoning with Ben on the matter. He's got a genuine hatred in his bone against homosexuals with clouds any and all reasoning ability he may or may not have.

Over the years he's done nothing but spew lies and completely unsupported and obviously false "facts" in defense of his defamation of homosexuals, which you have always condoned. You cannot hide behind this argument that one can simply have civil discourse with Ben, because you know as well as I do it's pointless. Even when people make valid, completely sensible and irrefutable points he just ignores them and posts a new lie of some sort.

You have refused over the years to address it, and you are now blaming the fact that I'm abrasive for whatever reason, but I try my very best to make my comments specific to a person for some kind of action they have performed.

What Ben represents is disgusting to me and it should be disgusting to you. You can proclaim he is "ignorant" but that is to ignore the fact that he is not ignorant -- he's had many people sensibly and repeatedly argue with him on this issue. No, he knows the truth and he knows the issue, he just intentionally lies because he disagrees with and abhors homosexuality for many reasons. He is intentionally degrading all homosexuals with every lie he posts, and you think this is acceptable. I do not.

And until you decide to agree -- and I think you will when you think it over, or perhaps when another decade passes and you catch up with the rest of the world -- I'll be posting elsewhere.

[Ming]

Asher... many people are personally disgusted with the way you treat people... they either ignore you or challenge your facts. As long as people do it in a civil fashion, discusion is allowed.

If you wish to leave... fine. That's your choice.
But like we tell everybody. If you have a problem with a person's argument, attack the argument, prove them wrong. Make them look like the ignorant fools they are by proving them wrong. If you can't do that, then maybe you should leave.

[DaShi]

[QUOTE=Asher;5512479]

Racism isn't a banable offense, then?
[\QUOTE]

Of course, it's not. Here they punish racism by making the offender a mod.

[ZEE]

This thrade makes me sad

[Asher]

You are the one beinging infuriating. You piss on people with your trolls, start hate threads against group of people (like this one), but if somebody makes a claim (even if it's wrong) that goes against you, you whine like a stuck pig.

I would expect more from a Troll. Deal with it.
He is just being ignorant, not posting hate and racism.

Absolutely shameful, Ming.

If you can't tell the difference between a thread ranting about smokers pumping poisonous smoke into my private apartment and years of lies, slander, and insulting comments about an entire minority community there's no point in visiting this site.

I'm going to take an indefinite and perhaps permanent leave of absence from the site. If you decide to enter the 21st centry and change your tune from "ignorance is not an offense" to "ignorance is no excuse", than you can email me because until then, I'm utterly disgusted by what I'm seeing here.

For the life of me I cannot figure out how someone I thought to be quite smart doesn't understand how systematic value judgements about a minority group is unacceptable bigotry, just like racism is. Maybe you need to think about it for a bit.

In any case, I guess Ben wins, because I'm not putting up with this ****.

[Ming]

We have always defended the rights of gays, and have banned anti gay people for their hate posts. While you may be offended by some of his supposed facts (as I'm sure some people are by the title of this thread), he is not expousing hate or making hatefull posts.

There is a big difference which you are blinded too since this thread has been turned to a gay discussion.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're using it as part of your argument against gay marriage so clearly you think it's widespread.

Yes, but that's not the same as saying that it's impossible for gay people to be monogamous.

Asher, if I believed that some gay people couldn't change how they behave, I'd not be arguing with you here.

That's a far cry from racism. Bill Cosby rightly points out the brutal statistics wrt to marriage and fatherhood in the black community, does that make him a racist or a realist? He believes black people can do better.

You may disagree with me as to the concept of 'what is good', but that's because we have very different worldviews.

[Ming]

You are the one beinging infuriating. You piss on people with your trolls, start hate threads against group of people (like this one), but if somebody makes a claim (even if it's wrong) that goes against you, you whine like a stuck pig.

I would expect more from a Troll. Deal with it.
He is just being ignorant, not posting hate and racism.