How would you solve is Israel-Palestinian issue?

[Heresson]

it's simple really... give West Bank to Jordan, and Gaza to Egypt + some money from US,EU,Chinas,Russia,India (G8+ emerging nations) for reintegration... and that's it.

They don't want it? Well than withdraw all that USD support that those two countries already receive, and I am sure they will finally agree...

Other than that - create some sort of Palestinian state in both areas, but integration into somewhat stable countries is more viable.

Move the Pals out of Gaza. Give the land to Israel. Make a wall and stop accepting guest laborers. Harsh, but only solution.

Alternative. Jews move to USA.

What shall Palestinian get in exchange for Gaza? Hayfa? Lod?

All Israel wants is peace. No rockets hitting them. There have to be consequences. If you launch a rocket into Israel, then you are going to get destroyed.

Are You aware that rockets are hitting Israel because of what Israel does and did? Are You aware that Israel can force Palestinians to any peace it wants, yet it didn't do it for last 40 years?
You can not come in, take someone's land, occupy the rest and act suprised you're not liked by that person you've mistreaten.

Sinai was the linchpin to peace with Egypt. The return of the Sinai meant Egyptian recognition of Israel. Now they just need to do the same with Syria, and that will mean rolling into Damascus.

Meir and others didn't want to give Sinai back. They wanted to keep it as a buffor. Even Dayan, who wanted to give it back, wanted to give it back after 40 years or so. They were forced to do it, and to do it in much less time, and both sides profitted from it. Only american pressure can FORCE, yes, force Israel to make peace with its neighbours.

As for Gaza and the west bank, you cannot have a power vacuum and expect peace. The Palestianians have not shown that they are capable of governing their areas. If they were willing to be good neighbours, I could see them both coexisting, now I cannot.

You have right about the problem of lack of a stable power in Palestine, but Israel is in large part responsible for that. You can not give someone hardly any power, and only over part of the territory, bomb it and destroy settlements from time to time, besiege the leader of this entity, support its enemies etc and expect this authority to be stable.

Besides, the Jordan river makes a more sensible border anyways.

I think Dniepr river in Ukraine would make much finer, natural border of Poland
than what we have today. Does it mean Poland has right to occupy Ukraine?

Jews have always been there.

yes, but until the end of XIX century they were 3% of population or less.

[Heresson]

This problem is not a land problem.
It's a hate-problem.
The solution is that the arab nation should stop hating israel and wanting Israel be totally destroyed.

- That would end the funding of Hamas and Hezbollah, etc.
- That would end the refusal of many arab nations to accept the palestinian refugees that have to camp for over 50 years inside their territories already (!!!)
- That would end the use of the palestinians as a shield and tool against Israel, by the Arab (And Iran) nations
- That would be the beginning of peace desires.

Right now the population of Gaza / west bank is hate-fed against ISrael every day.
They have more desires to destroy Israel then to build uptheir own nation.
That hurts the Palestinians most, in the end.

If peoples hate their neighbour more then they love themselves, then there will no peace. No matter how you draw the borders.

Are You aware Arabs do not hate Israel because they want to, but because of Israeli politics? That palestinian/arab nationalism in this case is completely defensive, only wanting to regain what was taken from them? That without radical organisation and fights Israel will never give up any part of Palestine?

Why do You find it wrong that Arab countries didn't accept Palestinian expelees/refugees, and not that Israel expelled them and forbidden them to return?

The end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will come when one side is utterly defeated and removed from the land just like the Germans of Prussia, Poland, and the Sudetenland were removed. Until then we'll see a bunch of petty wars which never achieve anything lasting. Either the Arabs will achieve their long held dream of killing every Jew who doesn't flee or the Israelis will eventually grow a pair and force out every Palestinian who isn't killed where they stand. Until then petty wars will continue.

Yes, this sucks but this is how it will play out. The Palestinian position that all Jews must be killed or driven out means there can be no other end. Least of all a two state solution where everyone lives in peace.

How can You compare between ww2 Germans and Palestinians? It's the other way round: Jews came there, conquered the land (not only parts they settled in earlier, but entire country), destroyed their neighbour's independance and continue to settle in conquered territory. It's Israel that is the agressor and that caused the conflict, not Arabs

71% of Palestine is in Jordan.
Didn't you get grades on your history tests?

1) UK was supposed to guide the citizens of Mandate of Palestine to independance, not (mostly illegal) jewish immigrants.
2) There was supposed to be a jewish national homeland, not a state
3) The jewish national homeland or whatever was supposed to be created IN Palestine, not OUT OF Palestine.
4) The territory of transjordan part of original mandate Palestine was smaller than Jordan today, because part of Jordan used to belong to Hedjaz
5) You know well that Transjordan became a separate entity and I mean Palestine west to Jordan
6) Who gave Jews the right to demand all Palestine anyway? God, right? Jews even in ancient times used to inhabit only small part of modern Palestine. yeah yeah king David and kingdom from Euphrates to Nil - exagerration, dreams and treating pillaged land as part of the kingdom.

Our "influential" religious parties have yet to propose or support killing of innocent civilians and terrorist attacks.

Oh, you know well Jews used terrorism many years before Palestinians did, and some of these terrorists became very influential, Israeli PM even. And yes, they support of killing of innocents, just that it is done by regular israeli army, not suicide bombers. By supporting illegal settlements they support conflict and killing.

The west bank will always have a direct security influence in Israeli borders, and some of its towns are miles away from major Israeli cities.

What right You have to do that? Szczecin is just a bit away from Germany - should Poland demand right to control Vorpommern to protect it?

For the next 10 years I would want Israel to patrol their eastern border to reduce influence of extremist parties that can come from Jordan (AQ, Iranian agents etc).

While I understand You, the israeli patrols shall be what will fuel agression.
You fear attack, so You attack and occupy, thus making the attacks more probable. Oneday You'll have to stop.



.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Really, it's not our problem and there's nothing we can do about it and I'm getting very sick of the whole thing. It's so 1990s.

QFT

Hi there, zombie Huntington.

Huntington was right.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Herreson wrote:
What shall Palestinian get in exchange for Gaza? Hayfa? Lod?

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quotes don't work???
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they don't lose Gaza, but instead they get Egyptian passports and keep Gaza... Egyptian border moves, and that's all there is, suffering stops and Egyptian police takes over policing the strip, stopping the terrorist attacks etc... Palis get the right to move to wherever they want in Egypt if they want to leave, and as they do not hate the Egyptians as much as they hate Israelis, I am sure it should be easier for them to coexist as a part of the Egptian state. They could even make it "autonomous Pali territory, to give some feeling of independence like Crimea ges in Ukraine , but for all other reasons just make them Egyptian (and West bank Jordanian)... While Egypt and Jordan would not want it, they would "have to" bring it on board, and to sweeten the deal they get "restructuring USD" from the rest of the world & problem solved...

[chequita guevara]

che - as much as i share your opinion often a time (and in this case as well), i just wish you would demonstrate i bit more feeling of tact sometimes. I can hardly imagine something more insulting than calling a jew a fascist. You can point out, that some of his thoughts may remind you of fascism, and show how so, but please refrain from personal insults of this kind. It doesnt help at all.

Oh please, there are plenty of Jewish fascists in this world, and many of them are in Israel. An avowed authoritarian with a taste for violent solutions to political questions can certainly be called a fascist.

[Colon™]

A good start would be if both sides would acknowledge there cannot be peace as long Hamas to does not recognize Israel's existance and as long Israel maintains and expands settlements on the West Bank.

[Arrian]

Yes, that would be a good start.

1.5 mil people extra for Egypt is not much, while West Bank is a bit more to swallow for Jordan, but in the interests of long term solution, no more murder

Oh, so simple. Wait...

Not simple at all. 1.5 million people is no big deal? Bull****. It's a big deal, especially when those people are in the condition that Gazans are in. Jordan would struggle even more.

No more murder? Are you ****ing kidding me? There would absolutely be more murder. First off, Egypt and Jordan are police states. The Palestinians are unlikely to meekly accept your plan, and thus they will keep murdering away. The Jordanian and Egyptian security forces would then have a go at them (and if they won't, the IDF will). There would be plenty of murder.

...

Drake,

We've spent decades of pouring billions of dollars into Israel, blocking any Security Council resolution against them, and generally backing them to the hilt. We've also spent considerable money on Egypt (buying them off to make nice with Israel) and a bit on the P.A. You think we can just wash our hands of the whole thing and walk away? Don't get me wrong - I'd love to do just that. But it seems to me we've created a moral obligation for ourselves. We're up to our necks in this ****.

-Arrian

[Naked Gents Rut]

You think we can just wash our hands of the whole thing and walk away?

Why not? We should've done it a long time ago.

We've spent decades of pouring billions of dollars into Israel, blocking any Security Council resolution against them, and generally backing them to the hilt. We've also spent considerable money on Egypt (buying them off to make nice with Israel) and a bit on the P.A.

Sunk costs. Can't do anything about them, but we can stop wasting money in the future.

But it seems to me we've created a moral obligation for ourselves.

Moral obligations are for suckers. The British never fell for that idealistic crap. They were perfectly willing to promise the Jews a state when it suited their interests. That "moral obligation" didn't prevent the Brits from stabbing the Jews in the back on the way out of Palestine, however. They even gave the Arab Legion tacit permission to attack a block of Jewish settlements.

Now that's some smart, cold-blooded ****.

We're up to our necks in this ****.

That's the problem. Luckily, we don't have to stay stuck in the **** if we don't want to.

[Dinner]

I'd invade Iran.

Ahh, the Bush solution.

[Arrian]

We should've done it a long time ago.

Agreed. But we didn't.

Sunk costs. Can't do anything about them, but we can stop wasting money in the future.

Possibly. If so, then yeah, you're right.

Moral obligations are for suckers.

Perhaps so, though I'm not sure following the lead of the British Empire is a great idea...

-Arrian

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Yes, that would be a good start.



Oh, so simple. Wait...

Not simple at all. 1.5 million people is no big deal? Bull****. It's a big deal, especially when those people are in the condition that Gazans are in. Jordan would struggle even more.

No more murder? Are you ****ing kidding me? There would absolutely be more murder. First off, Egypt and Jordan are police states. The Palestinians are unlikely to meekly accept your plan, and thus they will keep murdering away. The Jordanian and Egyptian security forces would then have a go at them (and if they won't, the IDF will). There would be plenty of murder.

...


-Arrian

1.5 million in a state of 75 million is not THAT much, and even though 2.3 mil in West Bank seem a lot for 6+ in Jordan, Jordan was administering the region until 1967, and only relinquished it's claim off it in 1988 after international pressure... just give it back to them.

What would reduce murder - giving 3+ mil Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank passports, giving them the opportunity to move out of the hole they have been dug into by all parties (Their leadership, Israel, and the international community), or merging them with 4+ million Israelis whom they were thought to hate for 50+ years (and often for good reasons) in the tiny state?!?

Who would kill more Palis - Egyptian "police state" that would persuade the "terrorists" or Israeli air strikes? I bet that in this week only there will be more Palis dead and wounded (mostly bystanders) than in next century directly from possible Egyptian attempts clean up of the criminals if the area was annexed... not to mention if it ever merges with Israel itself, which thankfully I do not think is on anyone agenda at this time...

Merging people who want to kill each other is a VERY bad idea, Egyptians and Palestinians at least (and especially Jordanians) don't exactly hate each others guts completely, and those two states are much more capable to absorb the territories peacefully, and manage them with external help for starters, than Israel or Palis themselves will ever be.

Clean solution is possible but there needs to be some pressure applied from participants and that's all.

[chequita guevara]

Merging people who want to kill each other is a VERY bad idea,

Yeah, all that Bosnian terrorism is just insane.

[Arrian]

1.5 million in a state of 75 million is not THAT much

It's the equivalent of adding 6 million people to the USA (which, of course, is far wealthier than Egypt). 6 million undereducated, sometimes malnourished, dirt poor and often radicalized people, complete with terrorist organizations in their midst (or rather, as their elected leadership). You're off your rocker here.

2.3 mil in West Bank seem a lot for 6+ in Jordan, Jordan was administering the region until 1967

Equivalent to adding ~100 million people to the USA (again, which is far richer than Jordan). You know, just like take over Mexico (which, while pretty messed up, is in better shape than the West Bank), guys. No biggie, you can handle it!

Oh, and by the way, Jordan has made it clear - repeatedly - that they are very much opposed to taking the West Bank back. It would probably bring down their regime, and they won't have that.

Who would kill more Palis - Egyptian "police state" that would persuade the "terrorists" or Israeli air strikes?

Not sure, actually. And why did you put police state in quotes?

Merging people who want to kill each other is a VERY bad idea

1. Che points out one example. There's also Northern Ireland.
2. Yes, the level of hatred at this point probably makes the 1-state solution not viable. There would have to be an intermediate stage. I said it was a bit of a pipe dream when I first brought it up.

-Arrian

[OneFootInTheGrave]

by coincidence they are really split there now and the three sides as as much separate as they can manage given the constraints of Dayton... it's working due to the external pressure, but it's far away from a fully functional state... and after all they were only in war for 4-5 years max and not 50+... if you give it another 100 years, so that everyone dies from this generation + hopefully integrated into EU, it will be much more OK by than ...

Merging Israel with Palestine is more like what was attempted by the west in Yugoslavia at first - give it all to Serbs and they can kill a few thousand, so the rest will settle... pipe dream, if Yugo was not split, and was ruled by them it would be another Palestine... but thankfully it did not take too long to resolve the situation (merely! 5 years)... not exactly a little, but comparing to Palestine and Israel, certainly not a lot...

In that respect Chegitz - you are pressing in the wrong direction - the "too peaceful" solution will merely produce more bloodshed in near and long term... I am not like TCO who is for more murder to produce "pacification" of Hamas/ other fighters (that will never work either)...

Reintegration with their Arab bretheren is the easy way out - certainly not without problems - but the most viable comparing to all other possible options.

Integration with Israel will not work if not for Palestinians, but for Israelis themselves, who could soon find themselves outnumbered in their own state, thus voted into a "non-Jewish" state in due course... I don't think they can allow themselves that + myriad of other problems that solution would cause...

It's either a dysfunctional Pali "two" state, or reintegration that can work... but I am afraid we will have a generation of this status quo with occasional 100's of women and children for 1 soldier tactic by both sides until someone on Pali side gets a nuke and hell breaks loose.

[Arrian]

Integration with Israel will not work if not for Palestinians, but for Israelis themselves, who could soon find themselves outnumbered in their own state, thus voted into a "non-Jewish" state in due course

As it should be.

-Arrian