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Can China survive depression and deglobalisation?

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  • Can China survive depression and deglobalisation?

    Hypothetical situation:

    The USA does not recover from its current recession, but instead spirals down into a depression. Personal debt catches up with the consumer, leading to a big slowdown in domestic demand. Further, the government is in no position to stimulate the economy, as Medicare, Medicaid, and SS all are hit simultaneously by the baby boomer retirement bulge (around 2009-2010).

    Simultaneously, peak oil (or a mild version thereof) hits, and the cost of shipping begins to eat into the costs of both the personal commuter and the international shipper.

    The effect this has on China is that their exports are hit very, very badly. Given that a very large part of Chinese growth has been export based, this will hit them hard, and where it hurts. The effects of peak oil will be that even if the USA recovers from the depression in the next few years, it will be impossible to go back to the old ways of outsourcing manufacturing to China, as the costs of transport will be too high.

    Chinese domestic growth will also be severely hit, as oil is the lubricant of all industrial economies today.

    To add to this, there are some troubling statistics on the "floating population" of China - the people, of varied (often rural) origins - who are drifting from place to place, city to city, looking for a job. The official figure of the Chinese government says that there are 110 million such people.

    Further, there has been massive migration from the villages to the cities, and a shift from a rural-agrarian style of living to an urban-industrial one. These are people who will be very, very unhappy if they're forced back into the old life - and it is not known if there will even be an old life to go back to, if the depression is severe enough.



    So the question, then, becomes: Can China survive a depression coupled with a simultaneous deglobalisation? And if it cannot, what effects does this have on the rest of us?

  • #2
    China will continue to exist. The CCP will be kaput.

    However, before they go, they'll take the rest of us with them. Expect scattered showers of Chinese nukes, with a 30% chance of invasion.
    John Brown did nothing wrong.

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    • #3
      Can China survive depression and deglobalisation?

      Yes
      Can India survive depression and deglobalisation?

      No
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      • #4
        The CCP has been in power for 50 years, including during worst times. Why would an economic decline guarantee their collapse? What is the current political alternative?

        The short answer then to the OP is yes. The Chinese would suffer and the government would be forced to undergo a number of painful economic reforms, perhaps even political reforms, but personally I seriously doubt a revolution would even occur, far less succeed.
        If you don't like reality, change it! me
        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
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        • #5
          The CCP has been in power for 50 years, including during worst times. Why would an economic decline guarantee their collapse? What is the current political alternative?
          I don't think the CCP has the ability to keep inself in power the same way it did during those worst times.

          More to the point, I think seeing them do so would be characterized as a collapse in its own right.
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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          • #6
            I think there would be revolution in China under those circumstances. I don't know enough to comment on the success/failure of that revolution.
            "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
            -Joan Robinson

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Patroklos


              I don't think the CCP has the ability to keep inself in power the same way it did during those worst times.
              And since when has the loyalty of the military been questioned?

              More to the point, I think seeing them do so would be characterized as a collapse in its own right.
              By whom? Western commentators?

              A collapse of the current policy of economic openness is a different thing than a collapse of authoritarian one party rule.

              Personally I think that the Chinese have had enough internal investement so that, while at a vastly slower rate, they can sustain growth with their own internal markets. They could help this along by keeping their savings at home, instead of continuing to send them to the US.

              As for rural unhappiness, it is certainly a huge problem for the CCP, but there is no movement currently in China that could harness that. Most of those protests are against local corruption, so in theory the Central authorities can look like they are on the side of the people if they come down hard on local officials. Besides, if the rest of the world is in economic depression, the Chinese authorities can easily deflect blame, and ask the populace to hang in there, to avoid internal chaos.
              If you don't like reality, change it! me
              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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              • #8
                Originally posted by GePap
                The CCP has been in power for 50 years, including during worst times. Why would an economic decline guarantee their collapse? What is the current political alternative?
                That's a truly naive answer. Prior to those worse times were even worse times that created the CCP as a political alternative.
                “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                "Capitalism ho!"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DaShi


                  That's a truly naive answer. Prior to those worse times were even worse times that created the CCP as a political alternative.
                  The memory of those darker times remains (stoked by the CCP) so they remain the alternative right now.

                  And what would be a viable alternative to CCP during a global economic meltdown? Liberal Democracy? Really, if the OP is predicated on the idea of the economies of the most successful Liberal Democracies going down the gutters, you expect the Chinese to then demand a switch to that system to save the economy??? And if not Liberal Democracy, then what? Authoritarinism? The CCP already has that covered.

                  So Dashi, in the OP scenerio, what is the political alternative to the CCP that could draw succifient popular support?
                  If you don't like reality, change it! me
                  "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                  "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                  "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                  • #10
                    With 110 million expendable men, China could repurpose its industry and survive the depression. It just needs 1 million loyal "communists" among them.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GePap
                      And if not Liberal Democracy, then what? Authoritarinism?
                      Yes but of a different kind. They need a way to get rid of their excess male population and to reinforce national unity while rasing the standard of living and coping with the depression.

                      In short I can think of one particular brand of authoritarinism that covers that and that has has presented itself in the past as the only alternative to communism in a time of collapsing liberal democracy.


                      Ja wohl, mein Führer!
                      Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                      The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                      The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GePap


                        The memory of those darker times remains (stoked by the CCP) so they remain the alternative right now.

                        And what would be a viable alternative to CCP during a global economic meltdown? Liberal Democracy? Really, if the OP is predicated on the idea of the economies of the most successful Liberal Democracies going down the gutters, you expect the Chinese to then demand a switch to that system to save the economy??? And if not Liberal Democracy, then what? Authoritarinism? The CCP already has that covered.

                        So Dashi, in the OP scenerio, what is the political alternative to the CCP that could draw succifient popular support?
                        Oye! This is why I don't debate here anymore. You people think in such narrow ways. It's not necessarily about switching to a different system. It's more about a changing of the guard. Whether that system is different or not is irrelevant to the CCP and to the supportors of the new guard. Mao won by promising better times, not delivering them.
                        “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
                        "Capitalism ho!"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DaShi


                          Oye! This is why I don't debate here anymore. You people think in such narrow ways. It's not necessarily about switching to a different system. It's more about a changing of the guard. Whether that system is different or not is irrelevant to the CCP and to the supportors of the new guard. Mao won by promising better times, not delivering them.
                          The OP question was about whether the current Chinese political system could survive. Yes, the change from Mao to Deng ment a 180 degree change in policy, but the fact of single party authoritarian rule did not change.

                          And the basic question is, what constituency would form the "supporters of the new guard." Mao had his rural masses. Deng the party elite. Suring an economic meltdown, who would support what alternative in China? Care to actually give an idea, or just make comments that add nothing?
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                          • #14
                            Can China survive a depression coupled with a simultaneous deglobalisation?
                            I certainly hope not, or at least, not in it's present form.
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                            • #15
                              The good news for China is they've barely begun to stimulate domestic demand and they have huge currency reserves. They could easily power growth with domestic demand if they wanted too.
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