Holy ****!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
That reminds me of the woman during karaoke at the American Legion, who sang "God Bless The USA" and wanted everyone to get up, hold hands in a circle and sway.
When people balked, she said that they weren't true Americans. This, in a veteran's organization facility.
I was afraid she wouldn't make it out unhurt.

Answer my damn post about torture and prisoners of war.

[SlowwHand]

Ok, fine. I've seen nothing to indicate that thy've suffered anything nearly the match of those American military to which you refer.
I don't believe in torture, but my observation remains.

[MrFun]

Never said that there were NO qualitative differences between the torture of American POWs during Vietnam War compared to the torture of Guatanamo prisoners today.

American POWs suffered more in regard to physical and pyschological torture than most Guatanamo prisoners suffered.

But my point was not whether or not there were qualitative differences with the torture itself. My question was what is the difference in regard to the principle of human rights between the situation of the Vietnam War American POWs and Guatanamo prisoners?

[Naked Gents Rut]

I've seen nothing to indicate that thy've suffered anything nearly the match of those American military to which you refer.

They've suffered nothing (officially sanctioned) that's worse than what the U.S. has inflicted on its own soldiers in the past.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They have human rights, not American citizen rights.

That belief is fine, but human rights include the right not to be tortured, right? At least every single human rights document I've seen... and when people are tortured in other countries we say their human rights are being violated.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


They've suffered nothing (officially sanctioned) that's worse than what the U.S. has inflicted on its own soldiers in the past.

Your "two wrongs make a right" reasoning sucks.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


That belief is fine, but human rights include the right not to be tortured, right? At least every single human rights document I've seen... and when people are tortured in other countries we say their human rights are being violated.

Read up. I said I don't believe in torture.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Your "two wrongs make a right" reasoning sucks.

It's actually "no wrongs make for no problem" reasoning.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Read up. I said I don't believe in torture.

My comment was more for Floyd (I expected he would raise the same objection about American rights, etc).

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


It's actually "no wrongs make for no problem" reasoning.

There's nothing wrong about violating human rights?

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
That reminds me of the woman during karaoke at the American Legion, who sang "God Bless The USA" and wanted everyone to get up, hold hands in a circle and sway.
When people balked, she said that they weren't true Americans. This, in a veteran's organization facility.
I was afraid she wouldn't make it out unhurt.

I would expect Veterans to have a better understanding of this than I do, frankly (at least, most that I know do). Being an American means believing in and defending American core values, just like being a Catholic does for Catholic beliefs. If you don't believe in the fundamental values that define America - innocent until proven guilty being one of the most important - then you should not call yourself an American as far as I'm concerned.

It drives me up the wall to hear people tell me I'm being unamerican by defending the rights of accused terrorists... if holding people prisoner for years with no evidence, torturing accused criminals, and such makes you an American, than I'm unamerican. I prefer to believe that disliking these practices is what makes me American.

[MrFun]

Snoopy, Slowwy has said that he opposes torture.

[SlowwHand]

No comprende Inglese.

[snoopy369]

I'm not directing that comment at Sloww, simply responding to his comment. Sloww didn't call me unamerican, but others have (both here and offline).

However, I do include the indefinite imprisonment and other non-'torture' elements of Guantanamo, note.

[SlowwHand]

I should point out that the detainees aren't used to, and don't want, due process that's such a lengthy process in the U.S.
Take the one that we feel is absolutely guilty, have the trial, take him out back and shoot him.
Then go ask questions, without torture, of the rest of the detainees. Repeat the process.