Mother Russia - A terrorist ??

[Guardian]

I know the timing of this may be a bit strange, this should actually have been posted a couple of years ago, maybe more. But anyway, here goes:

This is about the conduct of Russian troops in Chechnya…

And to Serb and anyone else who may feel offended by this: Well, I'm sorry. I don't really mean to condemn Russia, but as far as I can see the facts of this case pretty much speak for themselves. If you can prove me wrong, I will take it all back and offer a formal, public apology. But if you can't prove me wrong on this, then it doesn't really matter what you say.

Here's the case:

http://www.srji.org/en/news/2006/10/14/

Brief summary for those who can't be bothered to check the links:
An unarmed, clearly non-combatant civilian family rounded up during a sweep operation and taken into their own backyard, where they were all shot to pieces and then burned. A 1-year old child and his 8-months pregnant mother were among the victims, the mother also had several gunshot wounds to her abdomen - they even shot the unborn one.

Investigators at the scene of the crime collected numerous empty cartridges and recorded tracks in the ground made by armed personnel carriers used only by Russian military forces. The investigation established that the sweep operation was conducted by special police force units (OMON) from St. Petersburg and Ryazan. Yet the Russian authorities have failed to hold anyone accountable for the crime.

Here is another link to a Norwegian newspaper article:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=133970

It's all in Norwegian, but the headline says "Russian soldiers shot 1 year old in the head".

Not soldiers.

Terrorists.

Murdering scumbags.

No better than those they were sent to fight.
Not one bit better.

Actually, maybe worse, in some ways.
The notorious Chechnyan terroist leader Jamil Basayev was at least honest about what he did - he openly admitted to being both a terrorist and a bad guy.
Russia, on the other hand, has repeatedly and consistently claimed to be the good guy here.

Well, you don't get to do stuff like this and call yourself a good guy.
So, which one is it? Is Russia the good guy or is Russia just another terrorist?

If Russia is a good guy, then Russia has to take a clear stand here.
Russia needs to make it perfectly clear to the whole world that Russia does not do this kind of things, that Russian soldiers are not allowed to run around deliberately murdering 1-year olds and their pregnant mothers, and that anyone who does will at the very least be facing a dishonorable discharge from the Russian military.

While this may not totally prevent such incidents from ever happening, at least if Russia is clear on this, then any such incidents will be the acts of individuals, not the acts of Russia. Taking a clear stand on this would allow Mother Russia to stand up straight, hold her head high and walk away with her hands clean.

To the best of my knowledge, Russia has repeatedly and consistently refused to do so.

I rest my case.

[Julian Delphiki]

Is Russia the good guy

Nope.

[Guardian]

No, it does not appear that way, does it?

http://www.srji.org/en/chechnya/impunity/

Although the Russian government states that the procuracy and court systems are fully functional in Chechnya, there remains an indefensible lack of progress on criminal cases, particularly those involving crimes perpetrated by Russian federal forces. According to a June 2003 report published by the Russian human rights monitoring organization Memorial, the Military Prosecutor's Office launched investigations into 177 criminal cases against Russian servicemen during the period of September 1999-March 2003. Of these, 153 were subsequently closed for lack of evidence, suspended indefinitely, or turned over to other courts. Only nine went to trial.

In one of the few cases that have gone to trial, in 2004 a jury acquitted four Russian servicemen accused of murdering six Chechen civilians. The jury found that, while the men had indeed shot dead the driver and passengers in a civilian automobile in January 2002 and had then set fire to the automobile with their corpses to cover up the shooting, the officers “had not exceeded their authority” because they were acting under orders. No charges have been brought against the senior officer who issued those orders.

So, if you're acting under orders, you're not doing anything wrong, huh?
Hmmmm... I guess we failed to mention that to all the nazis and terrorists we've been killing over the years...

[Elok]

According to a recent Economist article, 30% of all Russian male deaths can be attributed, directly or indirectly, to alcohol. For female deaths the figure is 19%. What a crummy country.

Yes, this is irrelevant, but I figure we've had plenty of posts on Russia's state-sponsored thuggery, and not enough on Russia's spectacular alcohol problem.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Guardian
So, if you're acting under orders, you're not doing anything wrong, huh?
Hmmmm... I guess we failed to mention that to all the nazis and terrorists we've been killing over the years...

Yes, if you're in the military and you're acting under orders, you're not doing anything wrong. The right thing is to obey.

[Darius871]

This is news? Russian and international NGO's have been extensively documenting Russian war crimes in Chechnya for years, long before the ECHR started hearing cases that got public attention. A few examples:

Civilian Massacres

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,HRW,,RUS,,3ae6a86d8,0.html

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2000/russia_chechnya/

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2000/russia_chechnya3/index.htm

Maura Reynolds, Activists Probe Reported Killings in Chechnya: Russian soldiers allegedly gunned down civilians during season of revelry, THE LOS ANGELES TIMES, Jan. 7, 2002.
Paul Wood, The Pursuit of 'Terrorists' in Chechnya: Blood on Whose Hands?, HUMAN RIGHTS REVIEW 2, no. 3, 134 (2001).

Disappearances/Summary Executions

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0305/3.htm

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2004/04/12/russia-nine-civilians-extrajudicially-executed-chechnya

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/chechnya/

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/chechnya2/index.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR46/050/2005

Torture

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya/unchr-chechnya-02.htm

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2000/russia_chechnya4/index.htm

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/chechnya/

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/chechnya2/index.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR46/020/2000

Noelle Quinivet, Torture in Russia: The Committee against Torture's Assessment of the Russian Federation, HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNE 9, no. 2, 27 (2002).

Indiscriminate Bombardment

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1995/Russia.htm

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/10/31/civilian-casualties-mounting-chechen-fighting

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/11/02/evidence-war-crimes-chechnya

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/11/03/many-civilians-killed-samashki-village-chechnya

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/11/03/russian-forces-continue-pounding-chechen-targets

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/11/08/chechnya-civilian-casualties-urus-martan-and-novy-sharoi

http://www.aeronautics.ru/chechnya/111299.htm

Wood, supra, at 130-131.

Sexual Assault

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2000/russia_chechnya4/index.htm

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2000/russia_chechnya3/index.htm

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/11/03/many-civilians-killed-samashki-village-chechnya

http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/01/chech0120.htm

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2000/03/29/more-evidence-rape-russian-forces-chechnya

Looting

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1999/11/23/looting-underway-russian-controlled-areas-chechnya

Wood, supra, at 130-131.

Hostage-Taking/Ransom Extortion

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2001/01/21/field-update-chechnya

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/chechnya/

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2000/russia_chechnya/

[onodera]

Also, that's the first time I've heard of that, so I'll need some time to prepare a reply.
However, I have a link for you to read in the meantime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

[Darius871]

Originally posted by onodera
Also, that's the first time I've heard of that

You can't be serious. Do you have any semblance of a free press over there?

Anyway, the pile of links above gets pretty detailed, but for the three most egregious examples, just google "Novye Aldi," "Alkhan-Yurt," or "Staropromyslovski." They make My Lai look like a picnic.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Darius871 You can't be serious. Do you have any semblance of a free press over there?

Of course not. However, we did have some in 2004, but *personally* have never heard of it.

Originally posted by Darius871 Anyway, the pile of links above gets pretty detailed, but for the three most egregious examples, just google "Novye Aldi," "Alkhan-Yurt," or "Staropromyslovski." They make My Lai look like a picnic.

No they don't. I've done the math. However, all these cases are an example of what war does to ordinary people.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by onodera
However, I have a link for you to read in the meantime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Hell, at least they managed to prosecute two dozen perpetrators and convict a commanding officer.

Russia's investigations of war-crimes prosecutions in Chechnya? Mere paper tigers. Moscow created a purportedly independent national commission headed by former Justice Minister Krasheninikov, an Office of the Special Representative of the President of the Russian Federation for Ensuring Human and Civil Rights and Freedoms in the Chechen Republic, and a State Duma Commission on Normalizing the Socio-Political Situation and Human Rights in Chechnya, but they are not allowed to subpoena evidence or witnesses, nor to submit evidence to prosecutorial authorities.

And what about actual prosecutions? The Office of the Special Representative announced that only twelve Russian servicemen have been tried for murders committed in Chechnya, and the results of these trials have not been made public. Meanwhile not a single serviceman has been convicted for involvement in a forced disappearance, and there has not even been a single prosecution related to the three civilian massacres in Alkhan-Yurt, Staropromyslovski, and Novye-Aldi. In fact, the general in direct oversight of the troops in Alkhan-Yurt – Vladimir Shamanov – was personally awarded the "Hero of Russia" medal by Boris Yeltsin less than a month after the incident. How many My Lai perpetrators got accolades like that in the aftermath?

Sources

Human Rights Watch, “Memorandum on Domestic Prosecutions for Violations of International Human Rights and Humanitarian Law in Chechnya”; available from http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/chechmemo-0213.htm .
Human Rights Watch, “Last Seen: Continued “Disappearances” in Chechnya”; available from http://hrw.org/reports/2002/russchech02/ .
Shara Abraham, “Chechnya: Between War and Peace,” Human Rights Brief 8, no. 2 (2001).
Ian Traynor, “Moscow makes heroes of its war generals,” The Guardian; available from http://www.guardian.co.uk/yeltsin/St...194971,00.html .

[Darius871]

Originally posted by onodera
No they don't. I've done the math. However, all these cases are an example of what war does to ordinary people.

Yeah, I re-checked the math and it was wrong to suggest it was worse numerically than My Lai, but the scale of human tragedy is hard to distinguish. In any case, the dearth of Russian investigations and their history of impeding NGO inquiries both lead me to think that the casualties reported are just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows how much went unreported.

[GePap]

No, there guys aren't terrorist. War criminals, yes, but not terrorists.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Darius871


Hell, at least they managed to prosecute two dozen perpetrators and convict a commanding officer.

Russia's record on war-crimes prosecutions in Chechnya? The Office of the Special Representative announced that only twelve Russian servicemen have been tried for murders committed in Chechnya, and the results of these trials have not been made public. Meanwhile not a single serviceman has been convicted for involvement in a forced disappearance, and there has not even been a single prosecution related to the three civilian massacres in Alkhan-Yurt, Staropromyslovski, and Novye-Aldi. In fact, the general in direct oversight of the troops in Alkhan-Yurt � Vladimir Shamanov � was personally awarded the "Hero of Russia" medal by Boris Yeltsin less than a month after the incident. How many My Lai perpetrators got accolades like that in the aftermath?

Not made public? As far as I know, Arakcheev has been acquitted several times, and not by a Corrupt Military JudgeÂâ„¢, but by different jury panels.
How can you convict someone of disappearing a person? That's not even good English. Or Russian, as well. You can prosecute for murder, for kidnapping, but in all these cases you need either a body or a witness or a confession. If someone disappears, there's neither. How can you tell that was a crime? Why do you want to convict Russian servicemen of that?
Yes, General Shamanov is ruthless, even brutal. I don't know if he was involved in ordering the massacre, but I guess he'd turn a blind eye to it. Also, picture:

[Darius871]

Originally posted by onodera

Not made public? As far as I know, Arakcheev has been acquitted several times, and not by a Corrupt Military

JudgeÂâ„¢, but by different jury panels.

Link? The source on those 12 was from 2005 so something might have changed since then, but I can't find anything online.

Originally posted by onodera
That's not even good English. Or Russian, as well.

Actually "disappear" has been frequently used as an action verb for some time within the limited human rights context, and that usage is included in the dictionary, not that it matters.

Originally posted by onodera
How can you convict someone of disappearing a person? ... You can prosecute for murder, for kidnapping, but in all

these cases you need either a body or a witness or a confession. If someone disappears, there's neither. How can you

tell that was a crime? Why do you want to convict Russian servicemen of that?

That was probably poor wording; in this context "disappearances" are meant to distinguish the apprehension (or kidnapping) and subsequent extrajudicial execution from killing of civilians in a combat zone. This doesn't necessarily mean there is no body, though there might not be one. Obviously there would be difficulties of proof without a body, though the combination of witnesses and documentation confirming that the victim was taken into custody by the accused, and the accused's lack of a believable explanation for where the victim was released, could be enough to establish a presumption that the victim was killed in custody. If you go to the ECHR Case Law Database and search for "disappearance and Chechnya," you'll find several cases that make that inference based entirely on surrounding circumstances (Bazorkina v. Russia is one good example). Granted, those were civil suits against the government itself rather than prosecution of individual servicemen, but a case could probably be made against them or at least their commanders since who has custody of whom is usually a matter of record. In any case, I just found the dearth of disappearance prosecutions only notable; obviously the low number of murder prosecutions and impotence of domestic investigations is far more important.

Originally posted by onodera
Yes, General Shamanov is ruthless, even brutal. I don't know if he was involved in ordering the massacre, but I guess he'd turn a blind eye to it.

Ordering it and turning a blind eye are morally equivalent as far as I'm concerned. Sending the message that there are no consequences only encourages the conduct.

Originally posted by onodera
Also, picture:

So? I'd be the first to tell you that the Bush Administration is guilty of willful ignorance at best or a curt nod at worst. Let's not forget that the second war was mostly in the aftermath of 9/11. In 1999 Bush as a candidate condemned Russia’s “bombing women and children and causing huge numbers of refugees to flee,” and threatened to cut off IMF and Export-Import Bank loans to Russia, while then-Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Jesse Helms called for punitive sanctions and Russia's expulsion from the G-8. Even after the election Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of State John Beryle held a friendly meeting with the exiled Foreign Minister of Chechnya, and National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice showed commendable nuance in stating that “not every Chechen is a terrorist and the Chechens' legitimate aspirations for a political solution should be pursued by the Russian government.” In the late 1990s the Kremlin’s public relations machine had morphed its fight against the “bandits” of a dangerous “mafiocracy” into a broad crusade “to destroy global terrorism,” claiming Chechen separatists were intertwined with al-Qaeda. This convinced few outside Russia as the Sovietized Chechen Sufis had little in common with Wahabbi jihadists, not to mention the fact that Dudayev had himself fought them while a Soviet general in Afghanistan.

Then 9/11 changed everything overnight. Putin declared that Russians and Americans “face a common foe” in Bin Laden as his organization was “connected with the events currently taking place in our Chechnya,” and enthusiastically joined the so-called “coalition of the willing” against the Taliban. Establishing the massive military presence in Central Asia needed to oust the Taliban would have gone best with Russian approval, plus Russian intelligence and contacts with the Northern Alliance proved crucial to our operations there. The single-mindedness of the War on Terror also made Bush's cronies blind to the complexities of the fragmented Chechen insurgency, which was (at least back then, not so much now) mainly made up of secular nationalists like Mashkadov who condemned the attacks of 9/11 and terrorism in general. At the 2002 G-8 Summit Bush simply said “President Putin has been a stalwart in the fight against terror,” and the same year Colin Powell bluntly stated that “Russia is fighting terrorists in Chechnya, there is no question about that, and we understand that.” The post-9/11 sea-change in the administration's stance on Chechnya is obvious and is inexcusable IMO, but so what?

Why is it that any time Russia is criticized, the kneejerk reaction is "well yeah, but the U.S. did this!"? I've heard that canard out of Putin a half-dozen times, out of Serb countless times, and so far there's been two examples of the phenomenon on this thread, even though nobody here would be stupid enough to claim the U.S. has clean hands...

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by GePap
No, there guys aren't terrorist. War criminals, yes, but not terrorists.

Mostly correct, although militaries have been known to engage in or assist terrorist activities. Did someone in the family killed in the report above do something that abbetted the rebels? Then this may be a message to those rebels. More likely, this may be revenge (similar to My Lai), or payback for a refused blowjob or death-dealing for fun. Hard to say, but what is reported here is a war crime, not terrorism unless the above criteria applies. frownnod: