Guilty Pleasure Movies

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Darius871
Unintended?

This is one of the great debates of modern cinema. WAS Starship Troopers intended or unintended satire? I've read both sides and I have to say both make good points. As of today, I'm still on the fence.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
This is one of the great debates of modern cinema. WAS Starship Troopers intended or unintended satire? I've read both sides and I have to say both make good points. As of today, I'm still on the fence.

There's no honest "debate" really, since the only person on Earth who knows what Verhoeven intended wouldn't be some movie critic or Heinlein-geek on the interwebs speculating without a mindreader, but rather Verhoeven himself, and he's made clear more than once what his intentions were - a satire of the fascist streak in American culture, much in the same vein as Robocop (and Total Recall to a lesser extent) satirized some negative aspects of American culture.

Now, I certainly agree whether they did a good job of that satire is up to debate (personally I think they dropped the ball), but whether it was intended is practically beyond dispute. The over-the-top tone of every second of the movie - plus the way satire is screamed by the FedNet propaganda reels in particular - should make it obvious anyway.

Anyway, his own words are clear as day as far as intent is concerned, wacky as they may be:

- You’re receiving the Lifetime Achievement award here, and they’re showing some of your films, including Starship Troopers. It’s amazing to see how that movie is being received now, compared with some of the reviews it got when it first came out.

Yes! After being accused of being Fascist, or Nazi I would say, a correction has taken place I think, to a certain degree. And fortunately so, because it was very disappointing when the film came out that I was attacked. Less in England, I must say, but in Europe very much so, and also in the United States based on an article in the Washington Post, where in an editorial the film was discussed as being done by a Nazi.

- And now?

People have [since] understood that it was about American politics.

...

- Do such re-evaluations that make you feel good, or are you sad that it takes a while?

Sad only from a commercial point of view. It doesn’t help, that Starship Troopers article in the Washington Post was basically used by all the European newspapers, even before they could see the movie. It was put on the front pages, so when I came to Holland and to Europe to promote the movie, the decision was already made, to a large degree. European newspapers followed the American newspapers’ spin – all American papers, including the New York Times, are heavily ‘spun’.

- Even now, though, some people still describe Starship Troopers as a silly bit of science fiction about giant bugs?

That’s true – there has always been a pleasure of me to work in the B-genre and elevate that, or use that as a vehicle for other thoughts. It’s like the paintings of Karel Appel, our Dutch guy, who was copying all these children’s paintings. That was a heavy influence – or you could even look at Dada. It’s a normal thing in art, to use the ‘mediocre’ and the ‘banal’ to make a statement. That kind of sophistication in art is rare in film-making.

If you look at painting or even in music – especially at the beginning of the 20th century. Even the titles of some of these pieces: ‘Musique en forme de poire’ by Satie. Using the banal – something that is everyday, which is used in a different way. This is normal in a lot of the arts, only in film-making it isn’t, because of the high entertainment value, where everything has to be immediately understood. It’s rare, and if you use that, this method of hyperbole and irony and alienation, it’s very difficult for the audiences and even for the film critics to see through that. Often they are not even basically educated in the other arts, so they can only look at movies in the same way they’ve been looking at movies for the last fifty years or so.

http://www.jigsawlounge.co.uk/film/verhoeven.html

Making science-fiction films solves the problem of the villain, doesn't it? Whoever you have as a villain today, some group will be upset, but if you have bugs--

We were very well aware of that. At least we had a politically correct enemy here. We could all say, "These guys are really evil, and killing them is good." We cannot say that about any human enemy anymore, because everybody is seeing the other side now, at least a bit more than they did forty years ago. But Starship Troopers is reflecting a little bit the situation in the second World War, when the Americans were fighting the Japanese and the Germans. Basically, the enemy was evil and had to be destroyed. Nobody had time or even could bring himself to [face] the fact that these were also human beings, motivated by other thoughts, but as human as ourselves. People had a strong tendency and inclination to deny that. The line in the movie, "The only good bug is a dead bug," was applied to the Japanese, wasn't it?

Originally it was applied to American Indians by General Philip H. Sheridan in 1869: "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Well, that's basically the same kind of thinking, that the enemy is not human.

...

The fascist society you portray also has some good aspects--racial mixing and the equality of men and women--which seems odd because in a fascist state you'd think they would be discriminating against people of color or against women.

Yeah, that's the interesting, disturbing thing. It's also a little bit looking at the fascist possibility even of American society. Because it's saying, "Under the surface there is always this possibility that you would get to a much more and more puritan state. Yes, you might abolish crime and, yes, you might get rid of all these things, but then are you aware how that can be achieved?" It doesn't interfere with the story, because I think the story is more about people that are really caring about each other. I don't think any of the characters, with the exception of Carl, express themselves in any fascistic way. They only believe in the citizenship [status awarded to warriors]. But they are supportive to each other; they are warm to each other; they sacrifice themselves for others. Our focus group in the movie is much more what you would call human, and not really, in my opinion, fascistic. That's the interesting thing--these [aspects] are correlated. And basically that's what I think about big societies like the American society. Look at the McCarthy period; that's a kind of a fascistic statement that was put forward, isn't it?

Sure, and we're in another very conservative period now.

That's what I mean. Some people might applaud that somebody [in the film] is caught in the morning and judged in the afternoon and killed in the evening. But I think what Starship Troopers tries to do, perhaps a little too clearly in a couple of cases with the uniforms, it's saying, "Are you aware that this is also a little bit happening in your own society? And perhaps in a way that's not so obvious to you."

Even though the movie is R-rated, you know a lot of young kids are going to see it. Adolescents and teenagers will love this picture. Do you think they'll get the point about fascism?

No, not at all. I saw it in Sacramento with a very normal audience, and also in Granada Hills [California]. I feel that the most [young viewers] see is the kids with the guns. They all got the message; they all start laughing. They realize we're saying, "Everybody has a gun in this country." I think they all see the irony.

You don't think they will misinterpret it and think the young troopers are cool?

No, I didn't get that feeling at all. The exaggeration in the style goes so over the top, they realize we were, not spoofing, but looking at a hyperbole of reality. When I saw them getting excited in the movie, it was never about that. They got excited when Johnny [Casper Van Dien] was jumping on the Tanker Bug and blowing it to pieces. And when the bugs were attacking and the troops were holding the fortress. That's where I saw them really getting excited. That's where they participated. So I don't have the feeling that they would see it as a stimulation of fascistic feelings.

http://www.industrycentral.net/direc...views/PV01.HTM

I always felt that Starship Troopers was your unheralded masterpiece: no one on this side of the pond understood that it was a satire.

Not only that, but there are several different layers to it. The one that we added to (Robert) Heinlein’s novel, which was a satire on American society, was also a real stab at Fascism. I think it was too unusual a film, and not what people expected. Perhaps we should have pointed out that these elements existed before we screened it. In many countries, including the U.S., the film was accused of being Fascist or neo-Nazi. It addressed what I felt were the possibilities of American Fascism, but it was anything but pro-Fascist.

And of course, if you look at what’s going on now, it was prescient.

Yes, we didn’t realize that at the time, but we could see the beginnings of it even in the late ‘90s. I mean, these last five years didn’t come out of nowhere. It was ways of thinking that had been rampant in the ‘80s, even before Clinton. The whole neo-Conservative philosophy has a long history in this country. I was aware of that, and certainly (screenwriter) Ed Neumeier was too. We went that way to counter Heinlein’s narrative a bit, which was very militaristic, and perhaps a bit Fascistic, as well. So the ironies were invented to counter the original narrative in some way. We borrowed a lot of imagery from Nazi propaganda, like Leni Riefenstahl’s films, and the designs of the uniforms, so perhaps that’s where the accusations of Nazism came from. What I like about the film, is that we did it in a playful way: I don’t think we were grabbing the audience by the throat, trying to choke them with our viewpoints.

http://thehollywoodinterview.blogspo...interview.html

[Colon™]

It's just as well possible Verhoeven was smart and pretended he was going for satire as soon as he grasped in which way the wind was blowing.

[Darius871]

I've thought about it being some kind of post-hoc rationalization, but A) I vaguely recall these sorts of comments coming from him and critics at about the same time as the release, not after, and B) in any case the interpretation he lays out makes the most sense when looking at the flagrant hyperbole permeating every second of the movie. The theory that he actually took it seriously as a genuine piece of dramatic science fiction - like Blade Runner or Minority Report serious - is just nonsensical when looking at even one scene of the movie's ridiculously over-the-top style with Dr. Strangelove-esque absurdity. Just look at it through Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is that the intent matches the style, and the simplest is the best one.

[TheStinger]

it's clearly a piss take, very well done.

[Zevico]

The movie was somewhat funny. Mostly boring. Darius gets it down right. There were a few funny 'satire' moments. And the rest was just over the top trash.

[Tuberski]

Oh, I forgot Mallrats.

Love the movie.

ACK!

[Alinestra Covelia]

I've always been able to watch "Love Actually" and "Benny and Joon" anytime, anywhere just for the feel-good buzz.

"Garden State" is also really enjoyable, but my friends and brother think I'm giving it too much credit for being smart and funny.

[Dis]

wow way too much serious discussion over starship troopers.

it had some decent titty scenes. that's about all I remember from it. Wasn't doogie howser in it? I might watch it if it comes on tv or something, but not too great a desire to watch it.

Total Recall on the other hand... is a classic. Get ready for a surprise...

[Alinestra Covelia]

Demolition Man is awesome too. Schwarzenegger is already Governor so (with a bit of USC changes) he may become President. And Wesley Snipes has already been sentenced to prison time for tax evasion.

So they should stick Sly in jail too and bring them out a few years from now.

[Dis]

Demolition man rocked! Back when what's her name was making good movies instead of romantic comedies. Sandra bollock- just remembered her name.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Sandra Bollock, lol.

"Bollock" means "testicle" in Britspeak.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Colon™
It's just as well possible Verhoeven was smart and pretended he was going for satire as soon as he grasped in which way the wind was blowing.

Yep, and that's the argument. After all, this was the director who did "Showgirls" and IIRC, tried to use the satire defense on that one too.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Dis
Demolition man rocked! Back when what's her name was making good movies instead of romantic comedies. Sandra bollock- just remembered her name.

Hey! Romantic comedies does always equal bad movies.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
Demolition Man is awesome too. Schwarzenegger is already Governor so (with a bit of USC changes) he may become President. And Wesley Snipes has already been sentenced to prison time for tax evasion.

So they should stick Sly in jail too and bring them out a few years from now.

I'll never forget the virtual sex scene between Stallone and Bollock in Demolition Man.