How far will Prop 8 supporters set back gay marriage?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Actually the responses in this thread should tell you that Mormons still suffer from bigotry from the populace at large. Pro-gay marriage groups are trying to play into that well of hatred with thier campaign against thier church.

The Mormons supported Prop 8 by launching false ad campaigns that said, among other things, voting for it would stop gays from coming into schools and teaching people's children how to be little homosexuals.

There was nothing comparable by the anti-Prop 8 people against Mormons.

Anyway, if the Mormons were so concerned about being on the receiving end of people's anger, then they shouldn't have stuck their noses into California's people's rights in the first place.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And black voters were not the deciding factor in the passage of the proposition, either. This is just an attempt to stir up animosity between gays and blacks where none need be.

Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban

[Naked Gents Rut]

Mormons do not suffer from such lack of protection, as they are protected under the freedom of religion found in our Bill of Rights.

Mormons have it far worse than gay people. Gays are only suffering from the lack of a right that they've never had; the Mormons had a preexisting right to polygamy taken away by the government.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban

That neither refutes what I said, nor supports your claim. Try again.

I'll help: The number of black voters in the California Electorate isn't enough to account for the margin of victory for Prop 8. If blacks had voted for it in the same ratio as whites, it still would have passed.

The blame for Prop 8's passage is pretty obvious: a deceitful campaign hugely financed by the Mormon church, and a complete dropping of the ball by the anti-Prop 8 organizations, particularly the ever-useless HRC.

[Zkribbler]

True. The Pro-prop-8 group launched an effective scare campaign. The anti-prop-8 group had pretty lame commercials. Plus, Prop 8' early trailing in the polls lulled the opponents into a false sense of safety.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


Mormons have it far worse than gay people. Gays are only suffering from the lack of a right that they've never had; the Mormons had a preexisting right to polygamy taken away by the government.

Gays have it WORSE since we do not even have rights such as equal employment protection and so forth. Mormons already have such rights.

And I've already stated my position on polygamy before. Those who actually support legalizing polygamy can have at it with you.

What's pathetic is that I don't believe you sincerely believe that polygamous relationshps should be legally recognized anyway - you're just grasping for red herrings or strawmen to further your position in denying gays and lesbians their civil rights.

And DD should stop shedding crocodile tears for the Mormons. I know how well his gives-a-sh*t functioned before on other things, so there is no reason for me to beieve he sincerely cares about the so-called "plight" of the oh-so-poor Mormons.

This fact eludes him - gays and lesbians were not out to take away or deny any civil rights to Mormons, whereas Mormons have set out to take away the civil rights of gays and lesbians. Who here really holds the higher moral ground?

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by MrFun

This fact eludes him - gays and lesbians were not out to take away or deny any civil rights to Mormons, whereas Mormons have set out to take away the civil rights of gays and lesbians. Who here really holds the higher moral ground?

Touche

[MrFun]

damn right

[Naked Gents Rut]

And I've already stated my position on polygamy before. Those who actually support legalizing polygamy can have at it with you.

Why would I argue with people who support legalizing polygamy? Their position makes logical sense. The illogical people are those who support gay marriage but don't support polygamy.

What's pathetic is that I don't believe you sincerely believe that polygamous relationshps should be legally recognized anyway

Polygamy should be recognized if gay marriage is. It makes no sense to allow one aggrieved group to alter the definition of marriage while denying another aggrieved group the same.

[MrFun]

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but isn't it the case that the majority of Mormons have turned away from polygamous marriages anyway? Romney was/is not polygamous is he?

Since my support for equal marriage rights is based on the monogamous structure of marriage, I don't see how it is illogical that I refuse to extend the same advocacy to polygamous relationships.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but isn't it the case that the majority of Mormons have turned away from polygamous marriages anyway? Romney was/is not polygamous is he?

Isn't it the case that the majority of gay couples aren't married? Barney Frank isn't married, is he?

Since my support for equal marriage rights is based on the monogamous structure of marriage, I don't see how it is illogical that I refuse to extend the same advocacy to polygamous relationships.

Restricting marriage to monogamous relationships is as arbitrary as restricting marriage to opposite-sex relationships. If one isn't acceptable, neither is the other.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by MrFun
Someone more knowledgeable can correct me, but isn't it the case that the majority of Mormons have turned away from polygamous marriages anyway? Romney was/is not polygamous is he?

Since my support for equal marriage rights is based on the monogamous structure of marriage, I don't see how it is illogical that I refuse to extend the same advocacy to polygamous relationships.

The official stance of the Mormon Church is now against bigamy. Bigamy is outlawed in Utah, although some break-away sects still practice it. (IIRC, Utah outlawed bigamy as a condition of being admitted as a state.)

Not only is Romney not a bigamist, his "joke" during the campaign was that he was the only Republican candidate who'd had only one wife...all the rest had divorces and remarried at least once.

[MrFun]

Thanks, Zkrib. So if Mormons no longer see legal recognition of polygamous relationship as a compelling civil rights issue, then Drake's point is moot. If Mormons no longer feel they are discriminated against because of lack of legal recognition of polygamous relationships, then where is the outrage of such lack of legal protection?

The fact that a number of gay men and lesbians do not have an interest in legal marriage protection does not invalidate the compelling need for equal protection of such a civil right, Drake. There are plenty other gay and lesbians who have a passionate drive for this cause.

[Naked Gents Rut]

So if Mormons no longer see legal recognition of polygamous relationship as a compelling civil rights issue, then Drake's point is moot.

Of course they still see it as a compelling civil rights issue; they care enough that breakaway sects formed to practice polygamy in spite of the ban on the practice by the main church. This ban, as Zkrib pointed on, was forced on the Mormon church by the United States government as a condition of statehood for Utah.

The fact that a number of gay men and lesbians do not have an interest in legal marriage protection does not invalidate the compelling need for equal protection of such a civil right, Drake. There are plenty other gay and lesbians who have a passionate drive for this cause.

Are you really too dense to see that the same dynamic exists in the Mormon community? Some Mormons do not have an interest in a legal right to polygamy, but there are others that have a passionate drive for the cause that leads them to form breakaway sects.

You're not coming up with very convincing arguments to justify your continued bigotry against Mormons and other groups who wish to practice polygamy...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut

You're not coming up with very convincing arguments to justify your continued bigotry against Mormons and other groups who wish to practice polygamy...

Why don't you present your arguments for why polygamous marriages should not be legalized? Because I still refuse to believe you have a compassionate, sincere concern for Mormons in this regard. You're simply trying to manipulate the polygamous argument as a boogey-man to deny gays and lesbians their civil right.

I've already presented my arguments before in other threads and I do not have any inclination to get into again right now.