Some People think all Veterans Are Evil

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Comrade Snuggles
How many people did the West kill in the Congo in the 1960s?

Given that more people have died yearly in the local civil war than died yearly when "the West" was intervening in the 60s, the answer is actually a negative number.

Maintaining law & order so the mining et al. companies could maximize their profits... I don't care what you want to call it, empirical evidence (comparing death tolls then & ever after) show us that de facto it was peace-keeping.

The difference is, media has stopped caring. The never-ending civil war has no "good guys" or "bad guys" to highlight, so there isn't any news demand to be supplied.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Asher
Some of the most shameful historical actions of America involve their inaction in World Wars 1 and 2 until it was too late. If you fought earlier, more lives may have been saved.

World War 1 was basically a feeding frenzy of the great European empires fighting over the last little piece of land up for grabs in Europe, Bosnia/Herzegovina. Why should the United States have intervened earlier? It really, really, really wasn't our fight.

Furthermore, I think the idea that earlier American intervention would have shortened WW1 may be false. The main military lesson to be learned from WW1 is that superior numbers were utterly ineffective against entrenched defenders armed with machine guns. Throwing American troops into the western front of 1914 to 1917 would have simply been a waste of American lives.

Regarding WW2, I don't think the US could have contributed significantly until 1942 anyway. Certainly American forces would not have arrived early enough to prevent the loss of France, the low countries, Norway and Denmark. After that point the further conduct of the war would have largely hinged on the production of landing craft. The basic design of the landing craft used by the allies wasn't even complete until late 1941 and wasn't available in numbers until the summer of 1942.

Furthermore it's even possilbe that an early US entry into the war might have played into Japanese hands, since the US would have wanted to shift some naval forces to the Atlantic. Had FDR already been engaged in a desperate war in europe he might not have been able to stand up to the Japanese in 1941 and deny them critical war materials. Did you know that Churchill declined to participate in the US embargo of iron and oil to Japan because he felt the Empire couldn't withstand a two front war? If the Japanese had had access to American oil and iron for another few years the Pacific war might have turned out different.

Besides, the Japanese defeat of the French and British colonial forces in Asia early in the war showed the world the lie of white superiority. It doomed European imperialism. That's a good thing, right?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
Very few people "support war." Rather, some people acknowledge that wars are often a necessary evil, and honor those who put themselves in harm's way to end them.

If you believe that war is necessary then you support it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

You didn't fight the war to stop the Holocaust or Japanese atrocities.

No, they fought because the Germans were a militaristic totalitarian regime set on conquering the entirety of Europe.

It's the same kind of thinking. You think there is something special about your country and your govt. You trust your govt when they tell you to pick up that gun and go kill someone, because they are the bad guys.

[Unimatrix11]

I dont agree with most of this, Dr. S.

WWI had a whole spectrum of reasons. None of which could be called ´the one´. It has been put in the time, that ´a million little quarrals [between british and german] businessmen´ make for the biggest reason there ever was for war. As for the crises that lead to the outbreak: Bosnia-herzogovina had been part of Austria-Hungary officially since 1908 (and unofficially since 1878). There was no land to grab.

Numerical superiorty did make a difference in 1918 though. It is true that military developement apparantly had to go through some 3 years of slaughter before technical and tactical innovation made this style of battle obsolete. But, again, it is highly speculative, what would have happened, had the US joined the allies, say, in sept. 1914. Far more important than the soldier would have certainly been american war-bonds, which means more war-material and possibly a sooner development of the tank-aircraft combination.

I think the british had the landing craft ready by the end of 1940. I will have to look that one up, but i am pretty positive on that one. As for giving Japan an increased opportunity by being engaged in europe already, i´d say, that would mean less ships in Pearl (if the US, for some unknown reason, had thought the british couldnt handle the naval situation there on there own). And what more could the Japanese have conquered what the american denied to them in RL ? Australia ? ho-ho... that would have been a war-winner... BTW, had the US attacked Germany, say, in June 1941 or so, Japan would have immediately declared on the US, just like Germany did in RL - Triite-pact. And ´desperate war´ ? Well the whole war in europe lasted not even a year for the US.

The point about american oil for Japan just shows again, that the US first fueled a war-machine and then waged war on it (which BTW makes CS´ statement about the Nanking-massacre all the more valid). It´s a neat and very profitable policy, if you know you cant loose.

The sense of europe of itself being superior did not die in SE-asia, but in northern france, a generation earlier, at the Somme and at Verdun. Your ways cant be all that superior really, give you kill yourself in stinking mud, churn each other to dust, and gas each other to death, after all...

A good point would have been: German subs decimating allied shipping, making build-to-lost capacity about equal, when a growth was required for an invasion.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kidicious


It's the same kind of thinking. You think there is something special about your country and your govt. You trust your govt when they tell you to pick up that gun and go kill someone, because they are the bad guys.

If believing the Nazis were evil and should be stopped makes someone a government fanboy, then you're more of an arse than I ever thought.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Comrade Snuggles
[Q] Originally posted by Felch
Malaria and dysentery are caused by economic models? Here I was thinking they were caused by mosquitoes and swimming in sewage. People dying of natural causes is natural, and it is only by applying resources and know-how (i.e. capital) that we can overcome the dangers of nature.



Arian notes correctly that it is hardly likely that conditions in the colonial world would have been improved by a Nazi victory. And really that's the point. For most of humanity, a victory of one empire over another simply meant trading one set of butchers under one colored piece of cloth for another. The main difference between the West and the Nazis is that Nazis treated white people the way the other empires treated brown people. Did America treat the American Indians any better. We killed 90% of them, and yet we don't react with the same visceral horror that we do to the Holocaust. We don't treat the Congo horror the same we we treat the Holocaust. We don't even treat all victims of the Holocaust easily. Yeah, Nazi victory would have sucked for us, but that doesn't mean we were fighting for freedom. We were fighting for our privileges.

Double standards . Western intellectual superiority even today disgusts me!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Cut the crap.

If believing the Nazis were evil and should be stopped makes someone a government fanboy, then you're more of an arse than I ever thought.

The Nazis never did anything to me. Sure they were evil, but not a big problem for me, unlike my own government.

[Sirotnikov]

The Nazis never did anything to me. Sure they were evil, but not a big problem for me, unlike my own government.

So you are now clearly stating, that what ever moral squabbles you have regarding all that nazi/holocaust ruckus, it would hardly get you to do anything that does not promote your personal self interest and your silly grudge against teh evil disenfranchising US government....

Well I know I'm glad there were enough "government lackeys" to save my ilk.

And I'll salute their memory every day.


-----
Even though they probably lost their fight against teh evil government. Which you have no doubtedly won....

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kidicious


The Nazis never did anything to me. Sure they were evil, but not a big problem for me, unlike my own government.

The farther left on the spectrum, the higher the douchebaggery.

I hope everyone who gave Che charity money years ago regrets it, and I hope you never expect help from anyone either, Kid.

[Asher]

Originally posted by rah
Hmm how many posts will this thread last. Hmmm
I'll bet very few.

What do I win?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
So you are now clearly stating, that what ever moral squabbles you have regarding all that nazi/holocaust ruckus, it would hardly get you to do anything that does not promote your personal self interest and your silly grudge against teh evil disenfranchising US government....

If you want to call my self interest not becoming the pawn of those who I've sworn to destroy then yes that's my self interest.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kidicious


If you want to call my self interest not becoming the pawn of those who I've sworn to destroy then yes that's my self interest.

Have you considered moving to North Korea? Seriously. You may love it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Asher


The farther left on the spectrum, the higher the douchebaggery.

I hope everyone who gave Che charity money years ago regrets it, and I hope you never expect help from anyone either, Kid.

At least I won't be bent over holding my ass checks or down on my knees.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Asher


Have you considered moving to North Korea? Seriously. You may love it.

Cuba