Is America the new South Africa?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by rah
Almost every successful black athlete came from a lower social group.

All the techno geeks that became wealthy during the dot.com splurge.

Wow. Still listing ridiculous exceptions there, rah? You're going to base your criticism of a society with 300 million people in it on a discussion of the most elite 5000 or so?

This type of nonsense demonstrates either a lack of ability or a lack of will to discuss the matter seriously.

[rah]

Most of the people in the music industry.
Most successful stockbrokers are not from wealth. (just a small portion come for the elite families.

You're defining anyone that is successful as an exception. That's not a discussion, that's a self fulfillinging argurement.

My grandparrents came over as poor imigrants, yet EVERY generation has improved their class. We are not the elite, but just one example of many.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

these are all exceptions (dot com millionaires/political successes, they are just a small % of the population and that % is most likely skewed heavilty towards kids with wealthier parents too), I think that what makes US today more class society than continental European countries (excluding UK) is the fact that good education is harder to get on average for people on low income levels in US comparable to continental Europe/Scandinavia... and that in turn largely dictates the future earnings.

In continental Europe education is open to virtually anyone primarily based on prior results, also the quality of schools in worse/better districts is less variable... while in US the majority of it is based on family earnings and ability to pay/raise debt to go to better private (from primary/secondary school to universities) education which in turn enables the perpetuation of a "class"...

This is my general view off course, but I think it's a main driver...

UK is an outlier as due to the tradition here there are three real classes (really three different cultures ) where different upbringing and tradition on its own prevents social mobility more than the current inability to persue further education... even though with recent fees introduction this is now becoming somewhat harder to "no money" working class to get in just due to the perception more than the inabiltiy to get the loans (AFAIK everyone can receive them here) ... also in UK there is this whole issue of homelessness and perpetual "outcast" if you have early criminal record etc... but this is the very bottom, significant otherwise, but not a real factor in creation of the three "real" classes...

[rah]

The percentage of the elite in any country is a small % of the population by definition.

ANY minority child from a poor family that works hard and gets good grades in high school will have access to scholarships for higher education. You can go to the worst schools and you'll find that the kids that put in the work will still get a fine education.
The quality of the schools is usually based on the kids that come out of it. And if you have a lot of kids that don't give a crap, it doesn't matter how much you spend. If parents aren't involved pushing it makes a big different.

Yes, money can help, but without desire, it doesn't matter.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by rah
Most of the people in the music industry.
Most successful stockbrokers are not from wealth. (just a small portion come for the elite families.

You're defining anyone that is successful as an exception. That's not a discussion, that's a self fulfillinging argurement.

You must be taking stupid pills.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It indicates somewhat of a lack of class society when even those of humble birth can lead the country.

What, like Evo Morales coming to power in Bolivia shows that there is no class society or discrimination in that society?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by rah
ANY minority child from a poor family that works hard and gets good grades in high school will have access to scholarships for higher education. You can go to the worst schools and you'll find that the kids that put in the work will still get a fine education.

Wow. Instead of actually looking at numbers, let's let rah pontificate on what HE thinks the level of opportunity for minority children in the US is.

[rah]

Oh that adds to your arguement.

All you've done is make a self fulfilling statement and expect everyone to bow down to it.

[KrazyHorse]

I repeat: are you on stupid pills?

I've defined those who achieve exceptional success as exceptional.

So why don't you continue to explain to me how Reggie Bush playing in the NFL demonstrates how much opportunity there is in the US.

It really demonstrates a deep grasp of sociology.

[GePap]

Originally posted by rah
Most of the people in the music industry.
Most successful stockbrokers are not from wealth. (just a small portion come for the elite families.

You're defining anyone that is successful as an exception. That's not a discussion, that's a self fulfillinging argurement.

My grandparrents came over as poor imigrants, yet EVERY generation has improved their class. We are not the elite, but just one example of many.

Ambitious people make it anywhere. Tamerlane wasn't an "elite" but build a vast empire. Napoleon wasn't either, nor Hitler, nor Stalin. None of them could be termed elites in any way. The lives of those men doesn't disprove that their societies lacked stratification.

Heck, my grandmother was one of nine kids born in a poor rural village in Panama. She had seven kids, six of whom went to the University, and most of them became successful doctors, who own multiple properties around the country. I would not in a second say that Panama is a place in which social mobility is common or expected. A small group of people still control most of the wealth, to the point that most people in the "middle class" employ servants.

Singular examples are just that.

[KrazyHorse]

Me: numerous income studies have shown that intergenerational income mobility (as measured by these metrics) is higher in most of the First World than in the US

rah: Not one of the starting offensive line for the Packers was born into a rich household, so anybody can achieve anything in the US

Pathetic.

[KrazyHorse]

Why don't you go play with Kidicious and Ben, rah.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by rah
Oh that adds to your arguement.

All you've done is make a self fulfilling statement and expect everyone to bow down to it.

rah,

Click on the link KH provided. Read the report. It's interesting.

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

There are other ones I've seen, but a lot of them are gated behind the NBER wall.

[Elok]

America has much less AIDS than South Africa. Also, no lethal anti-carjacking devices, and we're generally much lower on my life-sucks index.