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Could we exist in a Newtonian world?

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  • Could we exist in a Newtonian world?

    Have you ever wondered what the nature of thought, will and consciousness is?

    Imagine yourself lying on a warm green meadow, dozing in the sunlight. You are inert, your mind blank. And then, as an experiment, you bend your right arm at the elbow and lift it in the air. What has just happened?

    It was pulled into the air by your tendons, which can be explained by Newtonian physics. The tendon was pulled by at least one contracting muscle, which can be explained by chemistry and molecular physics. The muscle was activated by a nerve impulse, which went down a nerve from your brain. The impulse can be explained by physics as well.

    But what had happened in the brain? Can we find out what caused this impulse? Can we work backwards, following the activations of different neurons? Perhaps we can. But can we work forwards? Can we pick a complete physical snapshot of the human body and find out that he will lift his right forearm in 4.34 seconds? Do we need a snapshot of a sphere that is 8.68 lightseconds wide to do that? If yes, can we enlarge that sphere (or ball, for you geometry nazis) to 2 lightdays wide and find out what the man will be doing in 24 hours? If we can, and in a Newtonian world (or even in an Einsteinian world) we can, then we've proven that thoughts have a physical nature.

    But what about free will? If we can calculate that, does the man in question have any will at all? He doesn't control his body, physics control his body and his every step can be predicted. Is a man a criminal if he kills another man, then? He didn't *choose* to kill him, the impulses in his brain worked in that way. It was a natural sequence of events.

    What is consciousness, then? Can we really set us and the world apart if our mind is completely governed by physics? Is our mind a "Chinese room", a very complex set of rules for processing input into output? Most people prefer to think that it's something bigger, that it can generate output without any input, but is it so? Sensory deprivation experiments demonstrate that people start going insane rather quickly when deprived of any input. Maybe it is simply a "Chinese dormitory", several interlinked rooms that can talk to each other and generate output until they run out of things to talk about? This can take a long time, but it cannot continue forever.

    However, we also know that our world is not Newtonian. Its minute building blocks are both waves and particles that are governed by the uncertainty principle. We cannot tell what state they are in until we or something observes them. Of course, your arm is a macroscopic entity, and it's not raised by collapsing the wave functions of its every atom. But what about that ion that started the nerve impulse to raise the arm? It could've done something completely different, it could've found itself in a different neuron, so the arm wouldn't have been raised. But who or what collapsed it? Or rather, was the collapse a randomized event?

    Well, there are a lot of observers in your brain, billions and trillions of atoms, but if the collapse was random, this means your whole thought process is just a random walk through the states of a multitude of wave functions.

    Lick your upper lip.

    Did you, or did you not just lick your lip? In any case, you've read the sentence, understood it, and then made a conscious decision to either lick your lip or not. But what made you decide? What was different in your brain? Was it random? Can you force yourself to lick a lip now? Is it still random?

    Well, we cannot prove if the decisions are random or not, as we can see and are the result of the single outcome that did happen. Whether you licked your lip or not, that decision was the most logical and natural, because it was the one that did happen. However, what if the wave function was collapsed by our will? I don't know how, but what if that's what consciousness is? Being able to collapse the wave functions of your nerve impulses, creating thoughts. Picking one future out of many possible and not waiting for it to happen.

    But where does this will, this consciousness reside? Do all living animals have it? Or are they merely more or less complex "Chinese dormitories"? Is it possible to upload your brain, your mind, your consciousness into a machine? Will it be able to collapse the electrons running along the circuits? Or will you turn into another non-sentient being, picking correct Chinese symbols according to a long set of rules? What if that computer is a huge difference engine, something utterly macroscopic, where there are no snowflakes starting avalanches? Does the hardware affect the software? Will it be noticeable to the others that the new mind is not conscious? He might still argue that it is. It's thought process will be deterministic, but add an RNG into the simulation software, and it no longer is. Can you tell from the outside if there's consciousness inside? Can you *prove* it?

    Or maybe it's all a load of bull, and conscousness *is* a physical phenomenon? Maybe it *is* a "Chinese room", maybe it *is* a very complex set of rules from processing input into output with some quantum unpredictability thrown in? But who's me, then? I know that at least one consciousness does exist in this world, mine, and I don't feel like I cannot control my thoughts, that they are either predetermined or random. Am I wrong?
    Last edited by onodera; November 1, 2008, 13:26.
    Graffiti in a public toilet
    Do not require skill or wit
    Among the **** we all are poets
    Among the poets we are ****.

  • #2
    No, and we've known so for over a century. Next?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Kuciwalker
      No, and we've known so for over a century. Next?
      Thank you for your insightful reply. Please read the post itself next time.
      Graffiti in a public toilet
      Do not require skill or wit
      Among the **** we all are poets
      Among the poets we are ****.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kuciwalker
        No, and we've known so for over a century. Next?
        At least give reasons so the trolling can continue Kuci...
        You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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        • #5
          You really mean Deterministic not Newtonian, Newton believed in a deterministic world determined by physical rules he described, but the idea predated him. Their may have been some tangling of meaning between Newtons physical laws and the concept of Determinism but their not the same. We use the word Newtonian to describe his physical laws of motion and gravity, laws we have known for a hundred years are actually false but are good enough in low speed (relative to the speed of light) to still be of use. Determinism is the ability to predict all events backwards and forwards given total knowledge and unlimited computational power, basically it is a belief that their are no truely random events. Quantum uncertainty dose not disprove determinism, it just guarantees that we mere mortals can never archive even half the information necessary to make deterministic calculations with. If Quantum events are truely random then determinism is necessarily false. Human free-will is an entirely separate and terribly muddy idea, much confusion is perpetuated by rubbish ideas like the Chinese room analogy. Any logical discussion of so-called freewill needs to begin with a definition of what freewill is, dose it mean "unpredictable", "nonrandom", "response independent of stimuli". Define it first and then discussion can begin.
          Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

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          • #6
            onodera, this is part 5 of the series of 6 that I used in my thread 'I watched a show on fizziks that is freakin bugging me.'

            In it the BBC fizzics guy says this:

            "I believe there's something worse lurking in the quantum shadows. Something truly nightmarish. Late into the night on physics conferences all over the world, when we scientists huddle together to debate and discuss our strangest ideas and dreams there are still things that really, really bother us. Chief among these are the quantum mechanical laws that atoms obey. In particular one aspect of these laws. Something called the measurement problem. If you want to see fear in a quantum physicists eyes just mention the words, the measurement problem. The measurement problem is this, an atom only appears in a particular place if you measure it. In other words an atom is spread out all over the place until a concious observer decides to measure it. So the act of observation creates the entire universe. Just to show you how mad this idea is I'm going to explain one of the most famous hypothetical experiments blah blah blah..."

            onodera, you said this...

            "And it's not humans that are doing it. In the world of particles, only particles exist.

            Also, on the subject. I was watching QI, which is an awesome show by the way, and one of their regular panelists, some formless aged British lady, started talking about Schroedinger's cat. When pressed to go on, she said it was a philosophical problem about people being unable to say whether one thing is one thing or another without checking.
            It's not. It's an explanation of the same thing Lancer wrote about in the OP. Before we interact with the cat, it is alive and it is dead. It has also turned into a cactus. All of this at the same time. Only our interaction forces it to pick a state. The difference is, the cat can't be alive and dead and a cactus at the same time, while a particle can."

            So if you break it down, the existance of the atom which is made of particles is really called into question. If atoms are only in one place if we observe them, isn't that rather like a Civ game? The map of the portion of the game that we observe is only that which is on the screen at any one time. The rest of the world is in the computer waiting upon us to want to observe it.

            We live in a simulation. If we can accept that this is a simulation, then we may be thinking somewhere else entirely. When we used or atom based brains to make our atom based tounge lick our atom based lips, what's been done is as real to us as reality itself. But reality, how real is that?

            We cannot determine. Those little guys wandering around your Civ game have a problem. They are on the monitor but they can't see what's truly real. Or...what we think is real anyway. That said, I don't think what we're in is a game, I think it serves an other purpose. Dividing the wheat from the chaff. The winners and losers in this simulation go to the next level or whatever based on their morality, on their willingness to embrace faith.

            I can only have faith that this is true. Also a hope that an ageless, eternal being with the ability to run such a simulation would do so for a greater purpose than 'all about me' entertainment. That seems to be a large part of the input in our lives here. A quest for faith. We make choices. We get faith, we move on to heaven. We don't, its some other fate.

            onodera, you're asking how the simulation runs and I don't think we here can know that without being told.


            Last edited by Lancer; November 1, 2008, 15:48.
            Long time member @ Apolyton
            Civilization player since the dawn of time

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            • #7
              People who don't understand 17th century physics discussing the philosophical implications of 20th century physics:
              12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
              Stadtluft Macht Frei
              Killing it is the new killing it
              Ultima Ratio Regum

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              • #8
                /me grabs popcorn and waits for KH to appear.
                You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Krill
                  * Krill grabs popcorn and waits for KH to appear.
                  I am not nearly so impressed as to bother, though popcorn sounds good.
                  Long time member @ Apolyton
                  Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                  • #10
                    1 minute late, Krill.
                    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                    Stadtluft Macht Frei
                    Killing it is the new killing it
                    Ultima Ratio Regum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      @ Krill's perfectly unfortunate timing.
                      1011 1100
                      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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                      • #12
                        bollocks. Oh well.

                        +1
                        You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                        • #13
                          More importantly, could the LHC still kill us all in a Newtonian world? And why did this thread title cause me to immediately think, "'cause we are liiiiving in a Newtonian world, and you know I'm a Newtonian girl?" I don't like Madonna.
                          1011 1100
                          Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Long time member @ Apolyton
                            Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
                              Any logical discussion of so-called freewill needs to begin with a definition of what freewill is, dose it mean "unpredictable", "nonrandom", "response independent of stimuli". Define it first and then discussion can begin.
                              Unpredictable nonrandom response independent of stimuli.
                              Graffiti in a public toilet
                              Do not require skill or wit
                              Among the **** we all are poets
                              Among the poets we are ****.

                              Comment

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