In all this, the demise of the EU?

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
True chance for next European War is Crimea... from Russia to Ukraine by Soviet administrative generosity... if Ukrainians get too cocky, this could easily secede and I do not want to know what else could happen... other than that, I think that after the last Balkan war all the rest is nicely split and there are no questions remaining to be answered in the future... maybe Cyprus, but neither Greeks or Turks seem that crazy these days...

Crimea is really the only big questions, and it is not really EU, but more EU vs Russia... not that pleasant either

Now, now if the EU fail we Euros would find reasons to fight each other, we have done that quite succesfully for nearly 2000 years.

[BeBMan]

In that case I declare the universal monarchy has broken out in Europe and crown myself as emperor of all Eurocoms

[Impaler[WrG]]

Europe would become a richer Africa with Nuclear weapons: constant infighting, civil war and the occasional genocide

And thats exactly why it would never happen, it wouldn't be to anyones benefit. The wealth of wester Europe is all cerebral and infrastructural, it can not be looted by Invasion so war is nothing but dept and scarcity for the population. The people don't believe in glory or honor in war anymore and are in fact pacifists so theirs no way to create a popular fervor for war at least not for a generation or two. Europe can barely scrap together peacekeeping troops to prevent genocides. Only a threat from the east could motivate a conflict and even then I'd bet against it.

If you think the EU might dissolve thats one thing, Its at least conceivable but it doesn't make conflicts any more likely because all of the conflict mitigating elements like trade, popular opinions of unity and pacifism created over generations continue to exist. Its like saying that if NATO was dissolved it would lead to a war between the US and Canada, its just silly.

[Traianvs]

There are two options in what will happen with the EU.

1) EU goes crashing down because the member states can't agree on a common policy
2) An EU with divergent speeds will really start to develop now, with the Euro countries taking the initiative. This already exists to some extent. Now's the opportunity to really get that started. The EU has always changed due to crises, and this is one of them.
In contrast to the ECB, who proves to be a good federal authority, there should be a political counterpart. As it is now, Barroso is still dependent on member state leaders, and despite advances in parliamentary power, that parliament only posesses a symbolic approval of the commision. That should definately change.

The exact same people who blame the EU of its malfunctioning and its weakness, want to hold back the EU, not granting it more power at the expense of their own sovereign influence. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing

Belgium ex-prime minister Verhofstadt has published a booklet called "the united states of Europe" in which he advocated this EU with different speeds. the book was greeted with scepticism or downright refusal, in that even some Euro countries don't want to go as far as Verhofstadt would lik, Juncker said. But now the political landscape has drastically been upset, this new EU has a far higher chance of succeeding.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Lancer
Maybe the Ukraine should give half of it back.

Half of the Ukraine?

[Lancer]

Maybe the half that glows in the dark...

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Traianvs
There are two options in what will happen with the EU.

1) EU goes crashing down because the member states can't agree on a common policy
2) An EU with divergent speeds will really start to develop now, with the Euro countries taking the initiative. This already exists to some extent. Now's the opportunity to really get that started. The EU has always changed due to crises, and this is one of them.
In contrast to the ECB, who proves to be a good federal authority, there should be a political counterpart. As it is now, Barroso is still dependent on member state leaders, and despite advances in parliamentary power, that parliament only posesses a symbolic approval of the commision. That should definately change.

The exact same people who blame the EU of its malfunctioning and its weakness, want to hold back the EU, not granting it more power at the expense of their own sovereign influence. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing

Belgium ex-prime minister Verhofstadt has published a booklet called "the united states of Europe" in which he advocated this EU with different speeds. the book was greeted with scepticism or downright refusal, in that even some Euro countries don't want to go as far as Verhofstadt would lik, Juncker said. But now the political landscape has drastically been upset, this new EU has a far higher chance of succeeding.

The only country who have come up with and implemented a proper plan is the UK- the rest including Geramny, France and the benelux have not done anything in unison, now this group is supposed to be core europe and this crisis if nothing else demonstrates that europe is not ready for further integration

[Colon™]

You might want to check the news before making such assertions.

Euro Rises Most in 3 Weeks as European Leaders Guarantee Banks

By Candice Zachariahs

Oct. 13 (Bloomberg) -- The euro rose the most in three weeks against the dollar and the yen after European leaders agreed to guarantee bank borrowing and prevent big lenders from going under.

The currency advanced as leaders of the 15 countries using the euro announced measures including a pledge to guarantee new bank debt issuance until the end of 2009; permission for governments to shore up banks by buying preferred shares; and a commitment to recapitalize any ``systemically'' critical banks in distress.

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5sa_gI0.qEk&refer=home

Expect resistance to a common bailout fund to subside and first steps towards a common financial regulator in the Eurozone.

[Lancer]

This I do not expect. I do expect a bloom of vampirism sweeping north and west from Rumania and only being stopped by Jesuit priests with sharpened silver crosses throwing themselves upon the slavering, hungry, unclean, blood feeding beast creatures and killing many with their holy silver knives. The Balkins becoming the world's first true vampire state. However no, unified action on the economy by the european states is very unlikely.

[Colon™]

Unified action is exactly what they presented a few hours ago...

[Lancer]

It will fall apart if it ever gets started. If not now, eventually. This IS europe we're talking about.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by TheStinger


The only country who have come up with and implemented a proper plan is the UK- the rest including Geramny, France and the benelux have not done anything in unison, now this group is supposed to be core europe and this crisis if nothing else demonstrates that europe is not ready for further integration

Read the news. Merkel's Germany has agreed for a unified action with Sarkozy's France. They were to be holding a common view. Before the summit on sunday Germany was reluctant for unified action because they would have to bear many of the costs (they are the biggest net contributor after all - by far).

The Eurogroup agreed on a common statement with concrete measures. This is what simply what is required from such a meeting. It doesn't mean that everyone thinks the meeting was a 100% success. Belgium's Leterme wanted more from the meeting, as he claimed the union is facing an existential crisis, according to De Standaard. What this means is that he wanted more, but nevertheless the Eurogroup had a common voice, and came to an agreement.

It's not wrong to have different opinions. It's wrong when those different opinions preclude a quick and decisive agreement because the procedures make it too hard to do so.

That is the paradox with countries like the UK. They believe the EU can't come to an agreement, so further integration is pointless. It's the other war around, since we need more integration and more supranational mechanisms, more power to the parliament rather than the member states governments and the abolishment of unanimity in council decisions on foreign affairs for example. Only then a decisive and unified voice can be sent. That won't mean there isn't room for dissent or debate, it's just that the EU will not be disrupted by lengthy discussion that never ends.

Oh and by the way. It just so happens that the UK and the Eurogroup in general had similar views on the measure to be taken. It's by all means not a 'UK plan'.

And another by the way: I think Leterme was right. A crisis is facing the EU. We need to use this crisis to topple the existing standstill and use the Eurogroup to take the iniative. That failed today, but meh we'll see what the future holds.

[BeBMan]

EU on the verge of destruction again:

European banks rescue plan agreed

Nicolas Sarkozy announces the rescue plan

European leaders meeting in Paris have agreed a plan to tackle the banking crisis, saying no big institution will be allowed to fail.

They pledged to guarantee loans between banks until the end of 2009, and said they would put money into them by buying preference shares.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said they were taking unprecedented steps.

World governments have been racing to throw banks a lifeline before the major markets re-open on Monday.

News of the rescue plan came from Mr Sarkozy - whose country currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU - after talks between leaders of the 15 countries in the euro currency zone.

UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown - not a member of the eurozone club - attended parts of the talks.

Britain announced a similar plan last week.

Capital injection

Mr Sarkozy said leaders had agreed a framework in which individual countries would be able to inject capital into their own banks by means of preference shares.

He said governments in Germany, France and Italy among others would be presenting their individual plans on Monday, within the agreed framework.

"The crisis has over the past few days entered into a phase that makes it intolerable to opt for procrastination and a go-it-alone approach," he said.

Mr Sarkozy said the guarantees would be at commercial rates, and he stressed rash financiers would not benefit from the public intervention.

"Where managers are at fault they will be dismissed," he said.


The poorest and most vulnerable groups risk the most serious - and in some cases permanent - damage
Robert Zoellick
World Bank president

Mr Sarkozy said the plan addressed all aspects of the financial crisis, but he did not say how much it would cost.

Analysts say sheer nervousness has been a big factor in the recent share price falls.

But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso - also at the talks - said the plan would end "the excessive pessimism of the markets."

"We have taken the right course for Europe, for our businesses and our citizens," he said.

Outside Europe, the plan was welcome by the head of the International Monetary Fund, Dominique Strauss-Kahn.

Speaking in Washington, he described the plan as helpful.

"I think that we now have a comprehensive response to the crisis and I think that the market will reflect it," he said.

The European plan came at the end of a weekend of crisis meetings.

"Decisive action"

On Saturday, finance ministers of the main economic nations - the G7 - meeting in Washington issued a five-point plan of what they called "decisive action" to unfreeze credit markets.

During the day on Sunday a number of individual countries announced rescue plans for their banks.

But even as attention focussed on rescue plans for nations of the rich West, the head of the World Bank, Robert Zoellick, warned that the global crisis could hit developing countries even harder.

"The poorest and most vulnerable groups risk the most serious - and in some cases permanent - damage," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7666274.stm

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by BeBro
In that case I declare the universal monarchy has broken out in Europe and crown myself as emperor of all Eurocoms

Hard luck Lancer, we're going nowhere

Actually it does piss me off that my country is such a bunch of fencesitters...