Obama up 8 points

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Worse than Kennedy?

What standards are you using??

Kennedy = had sexual relations with Marilyn Monroe
Clinton = did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky

[Arrian]

These loans on loans were possible specifically due to Phil Gramm's legislation in the late '90s killing the 1930's reform legislation.

The repeal of Glass-Steagal?

I've seen arguments that blamed that. Others who claim it has nothing to do with the current mess. I don't quite know who to believe.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Zkrib,

I think there is some evidence of JFK being... rather erratic. Truth is that he got assassinated and thus it's impossible to really evaluate him. Who knows what he would have done with the remainder of his term, and a second if he was re-elected?

Nixon, while a bastard, does have some tangible achievements in his corner. I'm not saying I'd vote for the guy, but...

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
What standards are you using??

Nearly causing a nuclear exchange with a rival power and then backing down after having made a very public deal over what could have been dealt with quietly would seem to be a big black mark to me.

[Zkribbler]

(a) Kennedy didn't cause the Cuban missile crisis; rather it was the Soviets who were placing first-strike nuclear weapons in Cuban.

(b) Kennedy didn't back down. It was the Russians who pulled their missiles out. Only later was it learned that (1) as part of Russian's agreement to pull their missiles out Kennedy had agreed to pull our Jupiter missiles out of Turkey; and (2) Kennedy had previously ordered the Jupiter missiles to be pulled out of Turkey, but the military ignored him.

(c) Kennedy pretty much had to play the crisis out in the public arena. No one expected the Russians to back down, and our next alternative was to invade Cuba. If we were to do that, we'd need world backing, and to get the support of the other nations, they had to see what we were doing.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
but the military ignored him.

Sounds like yet another reason to declare the man a horrible president given the fact that he was supposed to be commander in chief of the ****ing armed forces and couldn't get people to follow his orders.

[Zkribbler]

Or as Truman said, just before Eisenhower was sworn into office:

"Poor Ike. He'll give orders and later won't have any understanding why they weren't carried out."

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
(a) Kennedy didn't cause the Cuban missile crisis; rather it was the Soviets who were placing first-strike nuclear weapons in Cuban.

(b) Kennedy didn't back down. It was the Russians who pulled their missiles out. Only later was it learned that (1) as part of Russian's agreement to pull their missiles out Kennedy had agreed to pull our Jupiter missiles out of Turkey; and (2) Kennedy had previously ordered the Jupiter missiles to be pulled out of Turkey, but the military ignored him.

(c) Kennedy pretty much had to play the crisis out in the public arena. No one expected the Russians to back down, and our next alternative was to invade Cuba. If we were to do that, we'd need world backing, and to get the support of the other nations, they had to see what we were doing.

The US had missiles in Turkey. What, should the Soviets have gone ape **** in case they were going to invade Turkey? Would the US have seen it in the same light as you are saying that "next alternative was to invade Cuba"?

Nixon would have simply called Khrushchev and gotten a deal done and no public panic. Of course we wouldn't have known about it until later, just as we didn't know about a lot of the great stuff that Eisenhower did during his administration until later (which has caused his stock to rise with historians).

Kennedy was out of his league in the Cuban Missile Crisis and stumbled onto the right answer. Then he ****ed up an invasion of Cuba (and, of course, didn't get that world backing).

LBJ was a far more accomplished President (and used Kennedy's death to push through a bunch of things like Civil Rights), so I'm not being all that facetious when I say the best thing President Kennedy did while in office was to die.

[-Jrabbit]

Pretty damned cold.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Pretty damned cold.

Yeah, he's a Republican. It's vhat zey do.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Nixon would have simply called Khrushchev and gotten a deal done and no public panic. Of course we wouldn't have known about it until later, just as we didn't know about a lot of the great stuff that Eisenhower did during his administration until later (which has caused his stock to rise with historians).

The interesting and more pertinent question is what would Bush or McCain or Obama done in such a situation?

(Personally, any cold war era president who didn't end the world (either by luck or skill) gets at least a mild from me.)

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Nixon would have simply called Khrushchev and gotten a deal done and no public panic.

Nixon urged Eisenhower to nuke Hanoi after the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Yeah, he's a Republican. It's vhat zey do.

But I just backed something that gave a huge mandate to one of the most liberal (in the US sense) administrations in history (and a good argument for 2nd after FDR) .

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The US had missiles in Turkey. What, should the Soviets have gone ape **** in case they were going to invade Turkey? Would the US have seen it in the same light as you are saying that "next alternative was to invade Cuba"?

Russia was planning on putting pressure on West Berlin. When we complained, the Soviet plan was to then threaten us with the nukes in Cuba. (Do you want to lose West Berlin or do you want to lose Miami?)

Plus, Krushev had threatened to bury us.

We weren't planning any offensive moves against the USSR and the Soviets knew it. (I don't know if they knew Kennedy wanted to Jupiters out of Turkey; they did know the Jupiters were obsolete.)

[Kidlicious]

There are no good imperialists, and that includes Nixon.

JFK, however, enforced civl rights, and proposed what became the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and signed the executive order Presidential Commision on the Status of Women.