PETA just grossed me out!!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lorizael
When did I deny that some men and much of society can be oppressive at times?

Do you approve of oppression?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You're as dumb as a rock. This isn't about thinking I'm right. This is about either talking about gender as a whole group or a majority of individuals.

Classy.

And if you didn't think you were right, why the **** are you arguing with the rest of us here?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The only evidence that I present is that she's like an oreo cookie. She's a strange feminist in that she doesn't like women (generally). You don't find that strange.

If it's proof you want I don't have any, but then I don't really particularly care about Elok's GF. This isn't really about her personally.

No, only you think she's like an oreo cookie. Just because someone doesn't associate or behave as one would stereotypically expect, and tends not to get along with their own group, does not mean that they're self-hating.

The problem isn't that women are nurturing. The problem is that they are oppressed for it.

That doesn't answer any of the arguments from before. You are changing the frame of the debate again.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles

No, only you think she's like an oreo cookie. Just because someone doesn't associate or behave as one would stereotypically expect, and tends not to get along with their own group, does not mean that they're self-hating.

So you don't think it's strange to be a feminist that doesn't like women then. Fine, enough said about this.

That doesn't answer any of the arguments from before. You are changing the frame of the debate again.

Bull****. Traditional women's work is extremely important to society. Women obviously do more of it. They don't get paid for it. Therefore they are more socially responsible.

You're just bringing up absurdities. Of course people should be more nurturing, men and women both. You have no point. Seriously I don't know what your doing here except trying to get Imran off the hook for being so stupid. But in turn you're being just as stupid.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Do you approve of oppression?

*shrug* I don't actually care one way or the other about oppression. I'm completely amoral. I know that the way I interact with my male and female friends is free of sexism, and at this point in my life, that's all that really matters.

When it concerns any sort of hypothetical utopia, I would strongly disapprove of institutionalized sexism. But I wouldn't go about combating it by talking about how women are more sensitive and crap like that. I would go about it by attempting to disassociate stereotypical behaviors from group identities.

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Risk taking
In many situations, men are more prone to taking risks.

How is this socially irresponsible?

[6] Careers of men are often more dangerous because of this.

Some of these careers are somewhat needed. So, how is this socially irresponsible?

Men also have a higher rate of promiscuous sexual relations.

How is promiscuity socially irresponsible? The only people who claim that are the Puritans.

Personality tests
In the big five personality traits, women score higher in Agreeableness (tendency to be compassionate and cooperative) and Neuroticism (tendency to feel anxiety, anger, and depression).

Neuroticism could be argued to be socially problematic.

Demographics of MBTI surveys indicate that 60-75% of women prefer feeling and 55-80% of men prefer thinking.

How is this socially irresponsible?

Aggression
Main article: Aggression
Males are generally more aggressive than females (Coi & Dodge 1997, Maccoby & Jacklin 1974, Buss 2005). There is evidence that males are quicker to aggression (Frey et al 2003) and more likely than females to express their aggression physically (Bjorkqvist et al. 1994). However, some researchers (such as Rachel Simmons) have suggested that females are not necessarily less aggressive, but that they tend to show their aggression in less overt, less physical ways (Bjorkqvist et al. 1994, Hines and Saudino 2003). For example, females may display more verbal and relational aggression, such as social rejection.

This doesn't advance your statement either way.

Systematizing and empathizing
Females score higher on self-report scales of empathy, on samples ranging from school-age children to adults. Empathy scales include measures of perspective taking, orientation towards another person, empathic concern, and personal distress. However, such measures are subjective and empathy may be more related to gender role rather than sex.[10]

This, particularly the bolded statement, actually goes against your statement.

Simon Baron-Cohen's EQ SQ Theory claims that, in general, men are better at systematizing (the desire to analyze and explore systems and rules) and that women are better at empathizing (the ability to identify with other people’s feelings).

How is this socially irresponsible?

More males than females are diagnosed with autism and Asperger syndrome. According to Cohen, since autistic and Asperger individuals are very high in systematizing, albeit often in a manner which is hyperfocused, and may even oversimplify more complex systems due to missing certain details, and very low in empathizing as well, they are examples of an "extreme male brain."

This is a biological and mental disorder. While it may be a drain on society's resources, how is it socially irresponsible?

Intelligence
Main article: Sex and intelligence
Many recent studies have concluded that IQ performances of men and women vary little.[6][7][8][9]. However, one researcher in the United Kingdom, Richard Lynn, has authored research showing advantages to men of variable statistical significance.[10][11] Other studies show a greater variance in the IQ performance of men compared to that of women, i.e. men are more represented at the extremes of performance, and less represented at the median.[8][12][13]

How is this socially irresponsible?

Communication
Deborah Tannen’s studies found these gender differences in communication styles:[12]

Men tend to talk more than women in public situations, but women tend to talk more than men at home.
Females are more inclined to face each other and make eye contact when talking, while males are more likely to look away from each other.
Boys tend to jump from topic to topic, but girls tend to talk at length about one topic.
When listening, women make more noises such as “mm-hmm” and “uh-huh”, while men are more likely to listen silently.
Women are inclined to express agreement and support, while men are more inclined to debate.

This does nothing to advance your statement.

The studies also reported that in general both sexes communicated in similar ways [13]. Critics, including Suzette Haden Elgin, have suggested that Tannen's findings may apply more to women of certain specific cultural and economic groups than to women in general.

This, actually, supports my statements from before.




===

So, in short, you just cribbed a bunch of things from Wikipedia, and failed to show that men are more 'socially irresponsible'.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lorizael


*shrug* I don't actually care one way or the other about oppression. I'm completely amoral. I know that the way I interact with my male and female friends is free of sexism, and at this point in my life, that's all that really matters.

If you're indifferent to oppression why do you care about sexism (constrained to your definition)?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by Kidicious
So you don't think it's strange to be a feminist that doesn't like women then. Fine, enough said about this.

Elok said his GF doesn't get along with women all that much, not that she doesn't like women as a group.

Nuance. Subtlety.

Bull****. Traditional women's work is extremely important to society. Women obviously do more of it. They don't get paid for it.

I do not disagree.

Therefore they are more socially responsible.

If women did not exist, men would have to fill in and do those same jobs; much as if men did not exist, women would step up and perform those duties.

I'm not discounting the value of traditional female roles. You are, however, discounting the value of traditional male roles.

You're sexist. Just against men is all.

You're just bringing up absurdities. Of course people should be more nurturing, men and women both. You have no point. Seriously I don't know what your doing here except trying to get Imran off the hook for being so stupid. But in turn you're being just as stupid.

Classy.

It's too bad you can't see the problems with your statements and your tactics.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Kidicious
If you're indifferent to oppression why do you care about sexism (constrained to your definition)?

I don't care much about sexism either, actually. Concepts like that only matter to me as they pertain to my personal life or my theoretical ramblings.

What actually happens in the world doesn't concern me so much because, at this point in my life, I don't have the power to affect any of it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Elok
Please be advised that this thread has now escalated to the level of "profoundly silly," and adjust your plans for it accordingly. Thank you.

I'm glad I succeeded . I wanted this thread to be as silly (though its impossible) as Kid's views on sex and gender.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kidicious
So you don't think it's strange to be a feminist that doesn't like women then. Fine, enough said about this.

Putting aside that you are reading too much into it (as Mrs. Snuggles has pointed out), why can't you be a feminist who doesn't like women? You can dislike them for accepting the stereotypes foisted on them by men and refusing to break out of them or free of them.

Just like a Communist can dislike ordinary people, because they are like sheep to the capitalist order, while saying s/he's for the people.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles
Some of these careers are somewhat needed. So, how is this socially irresponsible?

Men are more concerned about what they personally get out of their job. Women choose careers and activities that benefit society yet don't pay as well. In fact, they do things that are socially responsible without demanding any pay in return at all.

How is promiscuity socially irresponsible? The only people who claim that are the Puritans.

Well, gee, are you able to put 2 and 2 together? They take more risks and they are sexually promiscuous. That means they spread more sexually transmitted deseases.

Neuroticism could be argued to be socially problematic.

Sure problematic, but what's worse is not being concerned with feelings at all, not paying attention to them, thinking they are bad.

This doesn't advance your statement either way.

The fact that men comit more violence doesn't advance my statement?

You're ****ing nuts! I'm serious, all of you have mental disorders of some kind or another.

This, particularly the bolded statement, actually goes against your statement.

It doesn't.

How is this socially irresponsible?

The fact that empathetic people are more socially responsible.


blah blah blah, this post is just too stupid to continue criticising.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Lorizael


I don't care much about sexism either, actually. Concepts like that only matter to me as they pertain to my personal life or my theoretical ramblings.

What actually happens in the world doesn't concern me so much because, at this point in my life, I don't have the power to affect any of it.

So in other words you're just like a typical man.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm glad I succeeded . I wanted this thread to be as silly (though its impossible) as Kid's views on sex and gender.

Now we need Aneeshm to come along and tell us what feminism is really about. Then this thread will be perfect, or at least close to it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Elok
Now we need Aneeshm to come along and tell us what feminism is really about. Then this thread will be perfect, or at least close to it.

We should PM him.