It's war.

[Guynemer]

But... but... Dubya saw the man's soul!

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Heresson


I think the most acceptable historical claims are 1100 years ago.
I want Poland up to Hanower and Hamburg

Ha! I want Germany with the borders of the Roman empire under Traianus since the medieval HRE had "Roman" in its name too....oh wait, the Romans didn't make it beyond the Rhine permanently...so Germany is actually not German since it was never Roman for long, WTF? However, the Roman borders mean simply more land, so I'll declare them the correct lines

[onodera]

Originally posted by faded glory
welp.


Seems like a larger war brewing. I really hope we stand up for Georgia. Its a democratic nation under attack by a fascist autocratic one.

And there is no dispute Russia is no longer a democratic nation. Elections were a farce and putin should not be in the political scene at all.

Who told you that Georgia was a democratic country and that Russia had been one?

Also, regarding the agreements. This document doesn't say much, sadly. There isn't even anything in it I'd translate and use in our discussion. We need later agreements that specify the way peacekeeping forces in Ossetia work in greater detail.

[Saras]

onodera, come on, you KNOW Georgia is democratic despite whatever your Lubyanka dudes are trying to do there.

[Dinner]

I think deep down he also knows Russia is no longer Democratic.

[Saras]

Yea, it's Republican

[Sandman]

They call it 'sovereign democracy'.

Really, it's just your bog-standard nationalism. They're the noble, mystical, earthy warrior-poets who've been wronged by the grasping, materialistic, profane, dishonourable West.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sandman
They call it 'sovereign democracy'.

Really, it's just your bog-standard nationalism. They're the noble, mystical, earthy warrior-poets who've been wronged by the grasping, materialistic, profane, dishonourable West.

QFT

[onodera]

Originally posted by Saras
onodera, come on, you KNOW Georgia is democratic despite whatever your Lubyanka dudes are trying to do there.

If a democratic party is using a partite system, there should be at least two popular parties that both have a chance to come to power.
That's why I say Ukraine and the UK are democratic countries, and Russia, Georgia and Japan aren't. Call them sovereign democracies if you want.
I have relatives in Georgia, Saras. The didn't describe Georgia as a peachy land of change and hope last time I spoke to them.
Also, I'm not trying to say that Russia is right, but that neither party is.

[Lonestar]

I happen to back Russia on this. The Western Media seems to beating the drum while neglecting that (1)Georgia started the attack with indiscriminate shelling of a city and (2) Most South Ossetians have gone out of their way to apply for Russian passports, clearly they would rather be Russian than Georgian.

[Sandman]

What if Canada tried this with Vermont?

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Sandman
What if Canada tried this with Vermont?

The rest of us would rejoice.


You know I kinda like the 90 alot more. When the russians were so dirt poor they were eating there own currency for nutrients,

Back then it was all

YELTSIN LOL.
RUSTY TANKS IN KOSOVO. LOL
RUSSIA LOL


back then nobody defended there retarded imperialist actions over internet forums cause everybody was too busy farming potatoe's and stealing parts for there 1978 Ladas.


Putin and company have no business in South Ossetia. It is a part of Georgia.

The honest to god truth is Russia wants the pipelines for leverage against Europe. The old Russia is returning. The regional bully of the Soviet days.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Lonestar
I happen to back Russia on this. The Western Media seems to beating the drum while neglecting that (1)Georgia started the attack with indiscriminate shelling of a city and (2) Most South Ossetians have gone out of their way to apply for Russian passports, clearly they would rather be Russian than Georgian.

As usual there is another side. Georgia has been receiving periodic shelling from the rebels in South Ossetia (their claim) and have decided to bring their soverign territory back into line.

That being said, I think South Ossetia has a good claim for independence. However, I can't think of a single incident of Russian tanks rolling into a country making anything independent. This is not the way to independence! (at least it should not be). Russia cannot invade another soverign country like this. This is a precedent of possibly enormous consequence.

In the absence of authority to do this, then Russia is clearly an aggressor. Now, it seems that there may be some justification somewhere, but a google search revealed none and onodera cannot find anything either.

This is a case of possibly the right thing with the extreme wrong method. It is very clear that Russia has a very imperialistic past and the recent nationalistic talk seems to indicate that this may be the first move in that recurring.

The UN Sec General must make a statement that this is not the way...that absent UNSC authorization that Russia must withdraw.

The issue of Independence for South Ossetia is one that must clearly be addressed by the world community once hostilities have ceased.

[PLATO]

Russia Has now lost any credibility as a mediator. Clearly the world is looking at them as the aggressor.

The right of self determination of South Ossetians is also being acknowledged.

HELSINKI, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Russia's armed intervention means it cannot return as an honest broker between the sides in the South Ossetia conflict, the head of Europe's main security and human rights group said on Saturday.

"Russia is at the moment a party in this conflict, not a mediator, and that has to be mirrored when ceasefire and peace talks begin," Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, current chairman of the 56-nation Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, told a news conference.

"It is clear that there is no return to the status quo, to what was," Stubb said before heading to the region.

Russian troops poured into South Ossetia on Friday, hours after Georgia launched a large-scale offensive aimed at restoring control over the region which broke away after a war in the early 1990s.

A peacekeeping force with 500 members each from Russia, Georgia and North Ossetia monitored a truce in the region which broke down this week.

Stubb said he would travel to Georgia on Monday to meet President Mikheil Saakashvili and go on to Moscow on Monday or Tuesday to meet Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

Expectations of a quick solution should be kept low, Stubb said. "On a scale of one to 10, we are at about two."

Stubb also said there was no question the current conflict was a war. "This is a war, no doubt about it. There is no reason to call it anything else."

He said Georgia's territorial integrity and the right to self-determination of South Ossetia were basic principles which would guide the OSCE throughout the conflict.

The OSCE monitors security in the region and has a mandate to promote talks between the parties to the conflict.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL9355010

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by PLATO


As usual there is another side. Georgia has been receiving periodic shelling from the rebels in South Ossetia (their claim) and have decided to bring their soverign territory back into line.

Periodic mortars is not comparable to firing rocket artillery into a city. For that matter, when the vast majority(A bigger percentage of the population of Kosovo in '98, I might add) wants to exit the country, than it's time to throw in the towel.

That being said, I think South Ossetia has a good claim for independence. However, I can't think of a single incident of Russian tanks rolling into a country making anything independent. This is not the way to independence! (at least it should not be). Russia cannot invade another soverign country like this. This is a precedent of possibly enormous consequence.

Who said anything about Independence? 70% of the population has applied for, and recieved, Russian Passports. It's clear they want to be part fo Russia, not "independent".

In the absence of authority to do this, then Russia is clearly an aggressor. Now, it seems that there may be some justification somewhere, but a google search revealed none and onodera cannot find anything either.

The authority comes from protecting their citizens.

This is a case of possibly the right thing with the extreme wrong method. It is very clear that Russia has a very imperialistic past and the recent nationalistic talk seems to indicate that this may be the first move in that recurring.

The UN Sec General must make a statement that this is not the way...that absent UNSC authorization that Russia must withdraw.

The issue of Independence for South Ossetia is one that must clearly be addressed by the world community once hostilities have ceased.

Boo-hoo. The precedent of Kosovo has pretty much shot that to ribbons. As I commented earlier in this post, more South Ossetians want ot be Russian than Kosovars wanted to be independent in '98. There is ample legal precedence for this.