GM Loses Another $16 Billion -- Bankrupt?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The big 3 currently do have some of the most efficient and innovative factories and production lines in the world but unfortunately they're not in the US largely because the UAW Union refuses to allow increased automation. The government needs to step in and curb union power or failing that nationalize the companies (at least in part) and force the needed reforms.

Here's a great video from the Detroit News: http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

GM has no value to me unless it creates well paying jobs.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kidicious


GM has no value to me unless it creates well paying jobs.

Competitive paying jobs: fine.

UAW-level paying jobs (counting benefits): stupid.

Businesses exist to make money, not create jobs. The latter should be caused by the former. If GM/Ford/Chrysler made money, they'd be creating plenty of jobs, instead of laying people off by the tens of thousands ...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Competitive paying jobs: fine.

UAW-level paying jobs (counting benefits): stupid.

Businesses exist to make money, not create jobs. The latter should be caused by the former. If GM/Ford/Chrysler made money, they'd be creating plenty of jobs, instead of laying people off by the tens of thousands ...

Not true. Gains in productivity don't go to workers. They go to shareholders, especially in this economy. That's been shown over the last few decades.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Competitive paying jobs: fine.

UAW-level paying jobs (counting benefits): stupid.

Businesses exist to make money, not create jobs. The latter should be caused by the former. If GM/Ford/Chrysler made money, they'd be creating plenty of jobs, instead of laying people off by the tens of thousands ...

It is a cyclical industry and has been since the early 1950's. Traditionally the companies would pile up cash during the good times and use it to tide them over during the cyclical downturns, the Japanese and Germans still do this, but the Big 3 (other then Chrysler which was forced to do so by Daimler) have not been doing this. GM and Ford both have been milked by activist hedgefund investors who demanded they pay out most of the profits to shareholder. That sounds good until you realize that without the cash cushion a regular cyclical downturn becomes a life or death experience.

Raiding companies for cash during the good years then dumping the stock when the cyclical downturn hits destroys value rather then creates it. It's the classic short vs long term way of looking at things where the US tends to only care about next quarter while the Japanese and Germans worry more about keeping the company well positioned over the long haul.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Kidicious


GM has no value to me unless it creates well paying jobs.

Management has made such bad decisions, such as killing the electric car, that the company deserves to die. It should be reborn and owned solely by the workers.

[snoopy369]

Because the workers would make such fantastic decisions?

You've seen the travesty that is United Airlines, right?

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Competitive paying jobs: fine.

UAW-level paying jobs (counting benefits): stupid.

Businesses exist to make money, not create jobs. The latter should be caused by the former. If GM/Ford/Chrysler made money, they'd be creating plenty of jobs, instead of laying people off by the tens of thousands ...

Who do businesses exist to make money for? Just shareholders? Why should we consider that goal more important than any other concern? I don't get any dividend from Toyota.

Unions exist to get high pay for workers. Since that is what they "exist" for, should we all be in favor of union workers getting high pay? Apparently.

The aims of enterprises, whether business or union, is immaterial. What we as a nation are concerned with is achieving the greatest overall good for everyone.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Because the workers would make such fantastic decisions?

You've seen the travesty that is United Airlines, right?

Owners have been making all the bad decisions. Oh wait, we can't forget about bankers and investors. They get a bunch of the blame too.

As far as I know UA's big problem has been 9-11 and fuel prices.

[Colonâ„¢]

If business wouldn't make profits there wouldn't be any capital for new investments. You'd have a stagnant economy. I'm increasingly amazed you call yourself Vanguard.

[snoopy369]

Maybe you all should head over to the secret Communist subforum and leave this one for the sane people

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Lancer




Management has made such bad decisions, such as killing the electric car, that the company deserves to die. It should be reborn and owned solely by the workers.

I have to specifically quote this one ... in what way is GM's electric car a good idea for the business right now ????? It's not efficient yet, and I can't see it becoming such in the immediate future. They don't exactly have much in the way of R+D money right now...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Maybe you all should head over to the secret Communist subforum and leave this one for the sane people

Nah, you guys are too much fun because you think your sane.

[Kidlicious]

Also, the electric car is good for the nation. Who cars about the company.

[snoopy369]

... because this is BUSINESS we are talking about. If the GOVERNMENT wants to research or fund research in electric cars, that's great (and they certainly should!!); but it makes ZERO sense for a company that is short on cash to be researching non-short-term investments. Zero. I'd vote for firing the **** CEO who did so to in a heartbeat.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
... because this is BUSINESS we are talking about. If the GOVERNMENT wants to research or fund research in electric cars, that's great (and they certainly should!!); but it makes ZERO sense for a company that is short on cash to be researching non-short-term investments. Zero. I'd vote for firing the **** CEO who did so to in a heartbeat.

So you want the government to do all the research and the company to get all the benefits? That figures. Like I said, who cares about the business. If the business cared about us maybe they would actually earn their bailout.