Discriminating against Roma isn't racist - because they're all thieves

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BeBro
You know what they said about the Poles and cars for a while here?

Yes, but:

1) Poles kind of deserved some of that - because there were many Poles stealing cars

2) There was another thing going on - Germans were selling cars to Poles and then claiming they were stolen, to get insurance etc

3) There are 2-3 mln people of polish descent in Germany (I am not counting former german citizens of Pomerania or Silesia, who are of polish descent too, because it's too far away - 3 mln people know polish, that's what I'm talking about, though only 0,2 or 0,3 mln declares polish nationality). In that ammount of men, car thieves were much much much a smaller problem than thieves in Roma community.

4) After what Germans have been doing to Poles during ww2 and before...
Well, I would see it otherwise if these were Germans (incl. Austrians) that were criticising Roma, not Italians.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Victor Galis

Originally posted by Will9
I used to know a Slovakian until he recently went back to Slovakia. His top 2 things wrong with his country were:

1. The Hungarians
2. The Gypsies

His complaints are the Hungarians described a situation similar to what some Americans fear will happen if we let Mexican Immigration get out of control.

His complaints about the gypsies were that the government aid to them gives them no need to try hard in life. They raise to children to know that they don't need to do anything in life. One thing the aid encourages them to do is have more children (more children = more aid.) This means they just keep having more children that know they are raised to know they leech of Government Aid thier hole lives.

Interestingly enough, asside from rampant corruption, I would probably call those the top problems with Romania (in reverse order of course). Ok... maybe not seriously. The Hungarians aren't that problematic, really.

Well if Slovakia and Romania would just give Hungary back the land that was stolen from them, there would be no issue.





But as for the real topic, I knew some Roma here in Maryland when I worked at an autoparts store. They seemed to be decent enough folk. We saw no reason not to trust them.

Racial prejudice
Italy
Europe
America
Greater Hungary

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Heresson


Yes, but:

1) Poles kind of deserved some of that - because there were many Poles stealing cars

2) There was another thing going on - Germans were selling cars to Poles and then claiming they were stolen, to get insurance etc

3) There are 2-3 mln people of polish descent in Germany (I am not counting former german citizens of Pomerania or Silesia, who are of polish descent too, because it's too far away - 3 mln people know polish, that's what I'm talking about, though only 0,2 or 0,3 mln declares polish nationality). In that ammount of men, car thieves were much much much a smaller problem than thieves in Roma community.

4) After what Germans have been doing to Poles during ww2 and before...
Well, I would see it otherwise if these were Germans (incl. Austrians) that were criticising Roma, not Italians.

The point here is that it's a bad idea to single out an entire people for special treatment with some vague generalizations as justification. If three Poles less or two Germans more are car thefts or make false claims about car theft is interesting for crime/insurance statistics or whatever, but it is no reason to treat all Poles or all Germans as criminals (and noone did).

That you go against crime regardless of the origin of those involved should go without saying, there's no need to make wide ranging measures that affect everyone equally without looking who actually committed a crime and who didn't.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Will9

His complaints about the gypsies were that the government aid to them gives them no need to try hard in life. They raise to children to know that they don't need to do anything in life. One thing the aid encourages them to do is have more children (more children = more aid.) This means they just keep having more children that know they are raised to know they leech of Government Aid thier hole lives.

This is a very important issue.

Giving aid based on the amount of children is highly counter-productive as it only increases leeching, and increases poor child-birth.

What you need to do is decrease the basic aid with every child.

But you increase it for every person getting education.
And you increase it for every education level (let's say you give X money for grade school, 10X money for high schoold, 30X money for professional school / academic school).

This combined policy will serve two purposes:

1) It will discourage creating new children one can't support (since the immediate effect of a newborn is a decrease in aide)

2) It will help people who already have many children, by rewarding them going to schools

3) It will encourage education, as each further step is a huge increase of money, so people have good reason to force their children to excel in schoolwork.


What you also should consider is making special primary and high schools for roma communities.

These should have a special program meant to give them the needed unique attention and training to become normal citizens. This would include cultural training on how life should be in your society (civilian lessons and what not).

Those who excel in community-based schools can then be moved to normal schools.

[Sandman]

The Gypsies can't possibly be thieves and crooks. If they were, the Italians would have voted them into high office.

[OzzyKP]

I do think it is interesting that Europeans who fight tirelessly for overly generous social welfare programs get all upset when people abuse the system. Yet instead of blaming it on the system itself that encourages such behavior it takes the tone of racism and scapegoating some poor ethnic group in the country who takes advantage of it.

[BeBMan]

Let's move from broad-sweeping generalizations about teh Romagypsiewhateverguys to some about Yuurpeeans. Italians, Poles and Finns in particular

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I do think it is interesting that Europeans who fight tirelessly for overly generous social welfare programs get all upset when people abuse the system. Yet instead of blaming it on the system itself that encourages such behavior it takes the tone of racism and scapegoating some poor ethnic group in the country who takes advantage of it.

Italians =/= Europeans

BTW Now that I am back in good healt I will never again speak ill of my nations health care system. So I can't really say I agree with you that they are all "overly generous".

Originally posted by BeBro
Let's move from broad-sweeping generalizations about teh Romagypsiewhateverguys to some about Yuurpeeans. Italians, Poles and Finns in particular

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


This is a very important issue.

Giving aid based on the amount of children is highly counter-productive as it only increases leeching, and increases poor child-birth.

What you need to do is decrease the basic aid with every child.

But you increase it for every person getting education.
And you increase it for every education level (let's say you give X money for grade school, 10X money for high schoold, 30X money for professional school / academic school).

This combined policy will serve two purposes:

1) It will discourage creating new children one can't support (since the immediate effect of a newborn is a decrease in aide)

2) It will help people who already have many children, by rewarding them going to schools

3) It will encourage education, as each further step is a huge increase of money, so people have good reason to force their children to excel in schoolwork.


What you also should consider is making special primary and high schools for roma communities.

These should have a special program meant to give them the needed unique attention and training to become normal citizens. This would include cultural training on how life should be in your society (civilian lessons and what not).

Those who excel in community-based schools can then be moved to normal schools.

Troubling trends

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by BeBro
Let's move from broad-sweeping generalizations about teh Romagypsiewhateverguys to some about Yuurpeeans. Italians, Poles and Finns in particular

Exactly.

Especially those evil Finns.

[Heraclitus]

And teh evil Swedes.

[OzzyKP]

And don't forget the French.

Just because.

[Will9]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
And don't forget the French.

Just because.

QFT



BTW, Hera

[Blaupanzer]

And those Poles. Always being in the way when some "better" nation wants to start a war. What's up with that?

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
BTW Now that I am back in good healt I will never again speak ill of my nations health care system. So I can't really say I agree with you that they are all "overly generous".

Socialist health care systems.

Hera being in good health: