The Communist Manifesto

[Agathon]

Originally posted by BeBro
Yeah, Hitler wasn't that bad, colonialism was worse

Actually if you look at the timeframe when Stalin's rule was on, the only comparisons that somehow make sense would be Hitler's and Mao's, so their regimes, not a process like colonialization that lasted over several centuries with lots of players.

What about the British Empire? Take the misrule during the Raj from 1850-1900, which contributed to several famines that killed anywhere between 30-50 million people. That's the closest analogue to the "communist" countries, where famines tended to kill a lot of people, often because of poor leadership and mismanagement. That's certainly comparable to what happened in, say, China. It has very little to do with communism and more to do with trying to create expansive unified polities out of fragmented rural societies.

You really need to get over this. History is written by the winners, and they assume that if they repeat their bull**** often enough, that most people will believe it. People don't like believing that their own country is a despicable, human rights violating, militaristic piece of crap, so they just won't believe it.

They're all ****bags. The United States is just the latest in a series of despicable and violent states that disguise their own crimes with propaganda. Anyone who doesn't understand that obvious fact is an idiot and a dupe. The "communist" states had their posters of Lenin and slogans and capitalist states have escapist television and advertising. It's all crap.

People really need to study ancient history. It's all there. All that is required is an act of understanding that people and states are not much different now. Every time you hear someone say: "Yes, our country used to do that, but we never do it any more", probably the only way it will be true is if their country can't get away with doing it.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
There are plenty of folks in IR who believe in some version of the democratic peace theory. Doesn't make one crazy.

It makes one ignorant. I mean, for ****'s sake, the only reason democracies don't tend to go after each other is because they are by accident part of the same power bloc and have historical ties. One might as well point out that English speaking countries don't tend to go to war with each other any more.

Big ****ing deal. None of this has stopped democracies from militaristic BS. Britain and the US have been attacking other countries and meddling in the affairs of others for years.

Like most political science, the democratic peace theory is an incredibly complex edifice built upon almost nothing.

[Imran Siddiqui]

the only reason democracies don't tend to go after each other is because they are by accident part of the same power bloc and have historical ties.

France and Germany definitely have a form of historical ties . Being part of the same power bloc, of course did wonders for peace among Communist states.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Agathon
What about the British Empire? Take the misrule during the Raj from 1850-1900, which contributed to several famines that killed anywhere between 30-50 million people. That's the closest analogue to the "communist" countries, where famines tended to kill a lot of people, often because of poor leadership and mismanagement. That's certainly comparable to what happened in, say, China. It has very little to do with communism and more to do with trying to create expansive unified polities out of fragmented rural societies.

The fun is that we usually don't come up with something like "it wasn't really the fault of the colonial regimes" or "they had to do this because they were under attack from outside" or "it wasn't really what colonialism is" nonsense in case of colonialism today. As for the famines, it would be quite interesting to look whether for example the famines resulting from Stalin's attempt to collectivization are just another result of mismanagment, or if they were also used as a form of economical warfare against the own people to break resistance against his policies. We know from the Ukraine that the latter certainly played a role.

And if it was communism or "communism", it remains that the guys claimed to be communists and shaped the practical attempt to create a society based on communist ideology (or, admittedly, their understanding of it), so it doesn't seem to far out to ask if other ideas of communism will be different or similar to it.

You really need to get over this. History is written by the winners, and they assume that if they repeat their bull**** often enough, that most people will believe it. People don't like believing that their own country is a despicable, human rights violating, militaristic piece of crap, so they just won't believe it.

Eh? We don't have to believe, we know it for various instances in history. Germany had to face that it has been exactly "despicable, human rights violating, militaristic", and it wasn't the end of the world. And big generalities like "History is written by the winners" aren't really helpful when looking at something concrete. If people prefer to lie to themselves about their pet country/ideology/whatever it's their business, but they shouldn't wonder if it is subject to critical debate from time to time. That's pretty much the same for all kinds of political directions, and communism or "communism" is no special case here.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Agathon
They're all ****bags. The United States is just the latest in a series of despicable and violent states that disguise their own crimes with propaganda. Anyone who doesn't understand that obvious fact is an idiot and a dupe. The "communist" states had their posters of Lenin and slogans and capitalist states have escapist television and advertising. It's all crap.

The difference between the United States and other evil bad countries is that we're a bunch of pussies. Our wars are always so soft and cuddly and we never throw ourselves into anything head on because we're afraid of public backlash. So yeah, we go in, **** things up and kill a few thousand, but then we're on our way.

The other countries you compare the United States to are not so weak-willed. They butcher and maim and slaughter full-throttle in a way we could never hope to achieve. And it's a shame, too, because we possess the most destructive power of any imperialist nation in history.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

the only reason democracies don't tend to go after each other is because they are by accident part of the same power bloc and have historical ties.

France and Germany definitely have a form of historical ties

The reason there is unlikely to be another war in Europe has to do with memory of the last one. It has little to do with democracy.

The "Communist Bloc" was largely a western fiction. It amazes me that you are duped so easily.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If Western countries were "accidentally" part of the same power bloc, why shouldn't Communist countries be subject to same basic analysis?

memory of the last one

Which means... historical ties?!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Lorizael


The difference between the United States and other evil bad countries is that we're a bunch of pussies. Our wars are always so soft and cuddly and we never throw ourselves into anything head on because we're afraid of public backlash. So yeah, we go in, **** things up and kill a few thousand, but then we're on our way.

Lolz. How can you believe this crap? Wake up and smell the coffee.

Ask the Vietnamese, whose country you attempted to poison and depopulate. I guess you wouldn't know, since Vietnam apparently exists so that Americans can make movies about what an American tragedy it was and how people were mean to American soldiers afterwards.

I guess the Vietnamese, who suffered casualties in the millions, should sympathize with this self indulgent and deluded nonsense, especially since you meddled in their country, divided it and invaded it.

The British used to do the same. As a child, I had a large collection of novels that were written as imperial propaganda. They were all full of this "noble duty" crap, which seemed to mean telling black people what to do with their own stuff.

It never gets old, since there is an endless supply of people willing to be duped.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Which means... historical ties?!

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I guess the Vietnamese, who suffered casualties in the millions, should sympathize with this self indulgent and deluded nonsense, especially since you meddled in their country, divided it and invaded it.

Well, the Vietnamese like trading with us and apparently want McCain to be President, so I think we've been forgiven.

That, and well, its a far cry from salting the city of Carthage or massacring the entire population of Jerusalem and stuff.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Agathon
Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Are you trying to decide which argument you are going to use in your attempt to explain things? Historic ties or memory of the last war?

[rmsharpe]

Originally posted by Agathon
Dude's a ******. He believes in the democratic peace theory, and he's a libertarian. He's just one of those right wing cranks who slipped through the cracks.

Then who would satisfy you? How about Robert Conquest? Conquests' oft-cited figure is 20 million.

Looks like you are counting the wars there.

Nope. I didn't include wars or famines in those statistics; if I did, the number would have ballooned to about 50 million as opposed to the meager number I posted earlier.

[rmsharpe]

Originally posted by Agathon
The "Communist Bloc" was largely a western fiction. It amazes me that you are duped so easily.

If you're trying to argue that the Soviet Union never existed, I think you've beat all the conspiracy junkies out there...

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
That, and well, its a far cry from salting the city of Carthage or massacring the entire population of Jerusalem and stuff.

This. Compared to other imperialist nations through out humanity's long and bloody history, we're a bunch of pussies.

I'm not trying to excuse anything the United States has done or pretend that my country is objectively better, but it could be a lot worse. The United States possesses the most awesome arsenal in the history of the planet, and we're pussies with it.

I mean ****, all those nukes and we've only used two? And they were ***** nukes, too.

With the firepower we have at our disposal, you think Caesar or Temujin or Napoleon or Hiter would have been so conservative in their use?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
If Western countries were "accidentally" part of the same power bloc, why shouldn't Communist countries be subject to same basic analysis?

Because such a comparison would be superficial. The world's largest democracy wasn't even on the "West's" side during the Cold War. If democracy were such a motivating factor, you would assume this could never have happened.

Western propaganda tended to portray Communism as some monolithic conspiracy. Putting all the communist countries in the same bloc regarding the Cold War makes about as much sense as putting India on our side.