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The Communist Manifesto

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  • #61
    No one has mentioned Cuba? The capitalists have used terrorism and economic warfare against the communist nation.

    Cuba in the cross-hairs: A near half-century of terror

    Cuba in the cross-hairs:
    A near half-century of terror
    By Noam Chomsky

    The Batista dictatorship was overthrown in January 1959 by Castro's guerrilla forces. In March, the National Security Council (NSC) considered means to institute regime change. In May, the CIA began to arm guerrillas inside Cuba. "During the Winter of 1959-1960, there was a significant increase in CIA-supervised bombing and incendiary raids piloted by exiled Cubans" based in the US. We need not tarry on what the US or its clients would do under such circumstances. Cuba, however, did not respond with violent actions within the United States for revenge or deterrence. Rather, it followed the procedure required by international law. In July 1960, Cuba called on the UN for help, providing the Security Council with records of some twenty bombings, including names of pilots, plane registration numbers, unexploded bombs, and other specific details, alleging considerable damage and casualties and calling for resolution of the conflict through diplomatic channels. US Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge responded by giving his "assurance [that] the United States has no aggressive purpose against Cuba." Four months before, in March 1960, his government had made a formal decision in secret to overthrow the Castro government, and preparations for the Bay of Pigs invasion were well advanced.

    Washington was concerned that Cubans might try to defend themselves. CIA chief Allen Dulles therefore urged Britain not to provide arms to Cuba. His "main reason," the British ambassador reported to London, "was that this might lead the Cubans to ask for Soviet or Soviet bloc arms," a move that "would have a tremendous effect," Dulles pointed out, allowing Washington to portray Cuba as a security threat to the hemisphere, following the script that had worked so well in Guatemala. Dulles was referring to Washington's successful demolition of Guatemala's first democratic experiment, a ten-year interlude of hope and progress, greatly feared in Washington because of the enormous popular support reported by US intelligence and the "demonstration effect" of social and economic measures to benefit the large majority. The Soviet threat was routinely invoked, abetted by Guatemala's appeal to the Soviet bloc for arms after the US had threatened attack and cut off other sources of supply. The result was a half-century of horror, even worse than the US-backed tyranny that came before.

    For Cuba, the schemes devised by the doves were similar to those of CIA director Dulles. Warning President Kennedy about the "inevitable political and diplomatic fall-out" from the planned invasion of Cuba by a proxy army, Arthur Schlesinger suggested efforts to trap Castro in some action that could be used as a pretext for invasion: "One can conceive a black operation in, say, Haiti which might in time lure Castro into sending a few boatloads of men on to a Haitian beach in what could be portrayed as an effort to overthrow the Haitian regime, . . . then the moral issue would be clouded, and the anti-US campaign would be hobbled from the start." Reference is to the regime of the murderous dictator "Papa Doc" Duvalier, which was backed by the US (with some reservations), so that an effort to help Haitians overthrow it would be a crime.

    Eisenhower's March 1960 plan called for the overthrow of Castro in favor of a regime "more devoted to the true interests of the Cuban people and more acceptable to the U.S.," including support for "military operation on the island" and "development of an adequate paramilitary force outside of Cuba." Intelligence reported that popular support for Castro was high, but the US would determine the "true interests of the Cuban people." The regime change was to be carried out "in such a manner as to avoid any appearance of U.S. intervention," because of the anticipated reaction in Latin America and the problems of doctrinal management at home.

    Operation Mongoose

    The Bay of Pigs invasion came a year later, in April 1961, after Kennedy had taken office. It was authorized in an atmosphere of "hysteria" over Cuba in the White House, Robert McNamara later testified before the Senate's Church Committee. At the first cabinet meeting after the failed invasion, the atmosphere was "almost savage," Chester Bowles noted privately: "there was an almost frantic reaction for an action program." At an NSC meeting two days later, Bowles found the atmosphere "almost as emotional" and was struck by "the great lack of moral integrity" that prevailed. The mood was reflected in Kennedy's public pronouncements: "The complacent, the self-indulgent, the soft societies are about to be swept away with the debris of history. Only the strong . . . can possibly survive," he told the country, sounding a theme that would be used to good effect by the Reaganites during their own terrorist wars. Kennedy was aware that allies "think that we're slightly demented" on the subject of Cuba, a perception that persists to the present.

    Kennedy implemented a crushing embargo that could scarcely be endured by a small country that had become a "virtual colony" of the US in the sixty years following its "liberation" from Spain. He also ordered an intensification of the terrorist campaign: "He asked his brother, Attorney-General Robert Kennedy, to lead the top-level interagency group that oversaw Operation Mongoose, a program of paramilitary operations, economic warfare, and sabotage he launched in late 1961 to visit the 'terrors of the earth' on Fidel Castro and, more prosaically, to topple him."

    The terrorist campaign was "no laughing matter," Jorge Dominguez writes in a review of recently declassified materials on operations under Kennedy, materials that are "heavily sanitized" and "only the tip of the iceberg," Piero Gleijeses adds.

    Operation Mongoose was "the centerpiece of American policy toward Cuba from late 1961 until the onset of the 1962 missile crisis," Mark White reports, the program on which the Kennedy brothers "came to pin their hopes." Robert Kennedy informed the CIA that the Cuban problem carries "the top priority in the United States Government -- all else is secondary -- no time, no effort, or manpower is to be spared" in the effort to overthrow the Castro regime. The chief of Mongoose operations, Edward Lansdale, provided a timetable leading to "open revolt and overthrow of the Communist regime" in October 1962. The "final definition" of the program recognized that "final success will require decisive U.S. military intervention," after terrorism and subversion had laid the basis. The implication is that US military intervention would take place in October 1962 -- when the missile crisis erupted.

    In February 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff approved a plan more extreme than Schlesinger's: to use "covert means . . . to lure or provoke Castro, or an uncontrollable subordinate, into an overt hostile reaction against the United States; a reaction which would in turn create the justification for the US to not only retaliate but destroy Castro with speed, force and determination." In March, at the request of the DOD Cuba Project, the Joint Chiefs of Staff submitted a memorandum to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara outlining "pretexts which they would consider would provide justification for US military intervention in Cuba." The plan would be undertaken if "a credible internal revolt is impossible of attainment during the next 9-10 months," but before Cuba could establish relations with Russia that might "directly involve the Soviet Union."

    A prudent resort to terror should avoid risk to the perpetrator.

    The March plan was to construct "seemingly unrelated events to camouflage the ultimate objective and create the necessary impression of Cuban rashness and responsibility on a large scale, directed at other countries as well as the United States," placing the US "in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances [and developing] an international image of Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere." Proposed measures included blowing up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay to create "a 'Remember the Maine' incident," publishing casualty lists in US newspapers to "cause a helpful wave of national indignation," portraying Cuban investigations as "fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack," developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign [in Florida] and even in Washington," using Soviet bloc incendiaries for cane-burning raids in neighboring countries, shooting down a drone aircraft with a pretense that it was a charter flight carrying college students on a holiday, and other similarly ingenious schemes -- not implemented, but another sign of the "frantic" and "savage" atmosphere that prevailed.

    On August 23 the president issued National Security Memorandum No. 181, "a directive to engineer an internal revolt that would be followed by U.S. military intervention," involving "significant U.S. military plans, maneuvers, and movement of forces and equipment" that were surely known to Cuba and Russia. Also in August, terrorist attacks were intensified, including speedboat strafing attacks on a Cuban seaside hotel "where Soviet military technicians were known to congregate, killing a score of Russians and Cubans"; attacks on British and Cuban cargo ships; the contamination of sugar shipments; and other atrocities and sabotage, mostly carried out by Cuban exile organizations permitted to operate freely in Florida. A few weeks later came "the most dangerous moment in human history."

    "A bad press in some friendly countries"

    Terrorist operations continued through the tensest moments of the missile crisis. They were formally canceled on October 30, several days after the Kennedy and Khrushchev agreement, but went on nonetheless. On November 8, "a Cuban covert action sabotage team dispatched from the United States successfully blew up a Cuban industrial facility," killing 400 workers, according to the Cuban government. Raymond Garthoff writes that "the Soviets could only see [the attack] as an effort to backpedal on what was, for them, the key question remaining: American assurances not to attack Cuba." These and other actions reveal again, he concludes, "that the risk and danger to both sides could have been extreme, and catastrophe not excluded."

    After the crisis ended, Kennedy renewed the terrorist campaign. Ten days before his assassination he approved a CIA plan for "destruction operations" by US proxy forces "against a large oil refinery and storage facilities, a large electric plant, sugar refineries, railroad bridges, harbor facilities, and underwater demolition of docks and ships." A plot to kill Castro was initiated on the day of the Kennedy assassination. The campaign was called off in 1965, but "one of Nixon's first acts in office in 1969 was to direct the CIA to intensify covert operations against Cuba."

    Of particular interest are the perceptions of the planners. In his review of recently released documents on Kennedy-era terror, Dominguez observes that "only once in these nearly thousand pages of documentation did a U.S. official raise something that resembled a faint moral objection to U.S.-government sponsored terrorism": a member of the NSC staff suggested that it might lead to some Russian reaction, and raids that are "haphazard and kill innocents . . . might mean a bad press in some friendly countries." The same attitudes prevail throughout the internal discussions, as when Robert Kennedy warned that a full-scale invasion of Cuba would "kill an awful lot of people, and we're going to take an awful lot of heat on it."

    Terrorist activities continued under Nixon, peaking in the mid- 1970s, with attacks on fishing boats, embassies, and Cuban offices overseas, and the bombing of a Cubana airliner, killing all seventy-three passengers. These and subsequent terrorist operations were carried out from US territory, though by then they were regarded as criminal acts by the FBI.

    So matters proceeded, while Castro was condemned by editors for maintaining an "armed camp, despite the security from attack promised by Washington in 1962." The promise should have sufficed, despite what followed; not to speak of the promises that preceded, by then well documented, along with information about how well they could be trusted: e.g., the "Lodge moment" of July 1960.

    On the thirtieth anniversary of the missile crisis, Cuba protested a machine-gun attack against a Spanish-Cuban tourist hotel; responsibility was claimed by a group in Miami. Bombings in Cuba in 1997, which killed an Italian tourist, were traced back to Miami. The perpetrators were Salvadoran criminals operating under the direction of Luis Posada Carriles and financed in Miami. One of the most notorious international terrorists, Posada had escaped from a Venezuelan prison, where he had been held for the Cubana airliner bombing, with the aid of Jorge Mas Canosa, a Miami businessman who was the head of the tax-exempt Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF). Posada went from Venezuela to El Salvador, where he was put to work at the Ilopango military air base to help organize US terrorist attacks against Nicaragua under Oliver North's direction.

    Posada has described in detail his terrorist activities and the funding for them from exiles and CANF in Miami, but felt secure that he would not be investigated by the FBI. He was a Bay of Pigs veteran, and his subsequent operations in the 1960s were directed by the CIA. When he later joined Venezuelan intelligence with CIA help, he was able to arrange for Orlando Bosch, an associate from his CIA days who had been convicted in the US for a bomb attack on a Cuba-bound freighter, to join him in Venezuela to organize further attacks against Cuba. An ex-CIA official familiar with the Cubana bombing identifies Posada and Bosch as the only suspects in the bombing, which Bosch defended as "a legitimate act of war." Generally considered the "mastermind" of the airline bombing, Bosch was responsible for thirty other acts of terrorism, according to the FBI. He was granted a presidential pardon in 1989 by the incoming Bush I administration after intense lobbying by Jeb Bush and South Florida Cuban-American leaders, overruling the Justice Department, which had found the conclusion "inescapable that it would be prejudicial to the public interest for the United States to provide a safe haven for Bosch [because] the security of this nation is affected by its ability to urge credibly other nations to refuse aid and shelter to terrorists."

    Economic warfare

    Cuban offers to cooperate in intelligence-sharing to prevent terrorist attacks have been rejected by Washington, though some did lead to US actions. "Senior members of the FBI visited Cuba in 1998 to meet their Cuban counterparts, who gave [the FBI] dossiers about what they suggested was a Miami-based terrorist network: information which had been compiled in part by Cubans who had infiltrated exile groups." Three months later the FBI arrested Cubans who had infiltrated the US-based terrorist groups. Five were sentenced to long terms in prison.

    The national security pretext lost whatever shreds of credibility it might have had after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, though it was not until 1998 that US intelligence officially informed the country that Cuba no longer posed a threat to US national security. The Clinton administration, however, insisted that the military threat posed by Cuba be reduced to "negligible," but not completely removed. Even with this qualification, the intelligence assessment eliminated a danger that had been identified by the Mexican ambassador in 1961, when he rejected JFK's attempt to organize collective action against Cuba on the grounds that "if we publicly declare that Cuba is a threat to our security, forty million Mexicans will die laughing."

    In fairness, however, it should be recognized that missiles in Cuba did pose a threat. In private discussions the Kennedy brothers expressed their fears that the presence of Russian missiles in Cuba might deter a US invasion of Venezuela. So "the Bay of Pigs was really right," JFK concluded.

    The Bush I administration reacted to the elimination of the security pretext by making the embargo much harsher, under pressure from Clinton, who outflanked Bush from the right during the 1992 election campaign. Economic warfare was made still more stringent in 1996, causing a furor even among the closest US allies. The embargo came under considerable domestic criticism as well, on the grounds that it harms US exporters and investors -- the embargo's only victims, according to the standard picture in the US; Cubans are unaffected. Investigations by US specialists tell a different story. Thus, a detailed study by the American Association for World Health concluded that the embargo had severe health effects, and only Cuba's remarkable health care system had prevented a "humanitarian catastrophe"; this has received virtually no mention in the US.

    The embargo has effectively barred even food and medicine. In 1999 the Clinton administration eased such sanctions for all countries on the official list of "terrorist states," apart from Cuba, singled out for unique punishment. Nevertheless, Cuba is not entirely alone in this regard. After a hurricane devastated West Indian islands in August 1980, President Carter refused to allow any aid unless Grenada was excluded, as punishment for some unspecified initiatives of the reformist Maurice Bishop government. When the stricken countries refused to agree to Grenada's exclusion, having failed to perceive the threat to survival posed by the nutmeg capital of the world, Carter withheld all aid. Similarly, when Nicaragua was struck by a hurricane in October 1988, bringing starvation and causing severe ecological damage, the current incumbents in Washington recognized that their terrorist war could benefit from the disaster, and therefore refused aid, even to the Atlantic Coast area with close links to the US and deep resentment against the Sandinistas. They followed suit when a tidal wave wiped out Nicaraguan fishing villages, leaving hundreds dead and missing in September 1992. In this case, there was a show of aid, but hidden in the small print was the fact that apart from an impressive donation of $25,000, the aid was deducted from assistance already scheduled. Congress was assured, however, that the pittance of aid would not affect the administration's suspension of over $100 million of aid because the US-backed Nicaraguan government had failed to demonstrate a sufficient degree of subservience.

    US economic warfare against Cuba has been strongly condemned in virtually every relevant international forum, even declared illegal by the Judicial Commission of the normally compliant Organization of American States. The European Union called on the World Trade Organization to condemn the embargo. The response of the Clinton administration was that "Europe is challenging 'three decades of American Cuba policy that goes back to the Kennedy Administration,' and is aimed entirely at forcing a change of government in Havana." The administration also declared that the WTO has no competence to rule on US national security or to compel the US to change its laws. Washington then withdrew from the proceedings, rendering the matter moot.



    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Kidicious


      I have two problems with that theory.

      1) The capitalists didn't give higher wages and benefits to workers in the first world. Those workers fought for what they got. If anything by outsourcing production they have hurt industrial workers in the first world, not benefited them.

      2) The new jobs that have been created in globalisation have largely been created by the "new capitalists" not the old owners and managers of the old industrial economy.
      You're mostly right about first world workers who fought for those benefits, but they principally achieved that in a time when we did not have our current globalized world. Working class people were largely similar to present day third world world class.

      They fought for more rights, wage etc on their own, but when they started to achieve their goals, and the bourgeoisie felt they could not sustain their resistance because it would be everyone's downfall, our working class became appeased by the good life. Those same people who have a relatively good life now sympathize with the bourgeoisie and are actually part of its machinery nowadays. Humans stay human. In this line of thought people can be manipulated, in contrast to liberal ways of thinking for example. Nobody really decides who, what or how they are.

      So the working class was incorporated, slowly but surely and is now part of the oppression of the masses out there in the third world. After all, we all want our cheap consumption goods too, thereby causing all kinds of detrimental effects of social, environmental, etc. nature.

      Of course there's no point in taking all those theories literally as the only truth. There is never one holistic theory on this as we all know eh . So... critical theory and even realism have their merit too for example.

      But this particular theory has quite a few valid points that I find hard to refute.


      PS: I don't understand what you are trying to say with that second point.
      "An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
      "Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Traianvs
        They fought for more rights, wage etc on their own, but when they started to achieve their goals, and the bourgeoisie felt they could not sustain their resistance because it would be everyone's downfall, our working class became appeased by the good life. Those same people who have a relatively good life now sympathize with the bourgeoisie and are actually part of its machinery nowadays. Humans stay human. In this line of thought people can be manipulated, in contrast to liberal ways of thinking for example. Nobody really decides who, what or how they are.
        The working class doesn't live the good life in the US. The middle class and up do. That said, I don't think a large bulk of the middle class is "appeased by the good life." A lot of them don't like the way the world works these days. The people who are really appeased are the rural working class types that Obama said are bitter and cling to guns and religion. But then they aren't really living the good life.

        I think that one thing that you aren't considering is how many different groups of people there are in the US today.

        PS: I don't understand what you are trying to say with that second point.
        With globalization manufacturing jobs moved to developing countries. Mean while the jobs that have been created have been in other industries that have been created by other people who weren't in manufacturing to begin with.
        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

        Comment


        • #64
          It depends on the worker, Kid. Dockworkers make obscene amounts of money, and despite Detroit's troubles, autoworkers are still quite well paid. Enough of the American working class does well enough that their politics isn't oriented around working issues, but rather lifestyle issues, like which politician make them feel validated.
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by chegitz guevara
            It depends on the worker, Kid. Dockworkers make obscene amounts of money, and despite Detroit's troubles, autoworkers are still quite well paid. Enough of the American working class does well enough that their politics isn't oriented around working issues, but rather lifestyle issues, like which politician make them feel validated.
            I don't know that much about dockworkers, but a lot of high paying labor jobs are hard to fill for specific reasons like travel and so forth. I would be taking a lot of higher paying jobs but I just can't do it right now when I'm taking care of a nine year old.

            My point is that most workers aren't really paid what you would call blood money.
            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

            Comment


            • #66
              Wilson was not really very socilaist he was more a leftish social democrat. The realists in the labour party by the 70's had worked out that the government was rubbish at running industry
              Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
              Douglas Adams (Influential author)

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              • #67
                Social Democrats are socialists. Piss poor ones to be sure, but still, socialist.
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                  Social Democrats are socialists. Piss poor ones to be sure, but still, socialist.
                  I'm not sure about that,Social democrats will attempt tp regulate rather than own the euro and Uk version of social democrats are quite prepared to go for higher taxation but tend not to want to nationalise everything these days
                  Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
                  Douglas Adams (Influential author)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I have one more point about the center-periphery theory. IMO it's a supply-sided theory. I think that higher wages in the developed economies causes higher wages in the underdeveloped countries. In fact, I'll go ahead and claim that supply-side Marxist thinking is all wrong.
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TheStinger


                      I'm not sure about that,Social democrats will attempt tp regulate rather than own the euro and Uk version of social democrats are quite prepared to go for higher taxation but tend not to want to nationalise everything these days
                      Hence the qualifier, piss poor
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Kidicious
                        I have one more point about the center-periphery theory. IMO it's a supply-sided theory. I think that higher wages in the developed economies causes higher wages in the underdeveloped countries.
                        Sure. Say you have 100 bucks, when you give 80 of them to the western guy only 20 remain for the guy in developing countries. It's simply math
                        Blah

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Kidicious
                          No one has mentioned Cuba?
                          Someone did.

                          Originally posted by Cort Haus
                          More obviously, if a socialist-lead revolution shows any chance of succeeding, external capitalist powers declare war on it to beat the economy into failure.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Re: Re: The Communist Manifesto

                            Originally posted by Kidicious
                            I don't know what you mean when you say that Marxist politics was about advancing the forces of production, rather than holding them back.

                            Also, today there are other issues in addition to economic exploitation. There are consumer and green issues as well as others.
                            Marx imagined a system not to share out the existing cake more equitably, as social democracy seeks to do, but to make a bigger cake.

                            Whilst the appalling conditions of the 19th century working class helped persuade him that revolutionary change was inevitable, this to him was a by-product of a system he thought to be damaged by its internal contradictions. He believed that a planned, rational economy would be more productive, more efficient, and capable of advancing humanity beyond the limits of capitalism.

                            The earliest roots of green politics lie not in a reaction to contemporary patterns of production and consumption, but in an early aristocratic reaction to industrialism, when land-owners who had become accustomed to land-based wealth from an agrarian, peasant-economy became threatened both by the new, vulgar, upstart industrial capitalist class and by the army of newly-organised workers that came with them.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Cort Haus
                              More obviously, if a socialist-lead revolution shows any chance of succeeding, external capitalist powers declare war on it to beat the economy into failure.
                              This is at best a convenient excuse to explain the failures of socialism. Socialism's failures are purely internal, not the effects of "economic warfare" like the radicals would contend.

                              The problem is that all Marxists are philosophers, not economists. The kind of collectivization, central planning, or labor-union induced economic development that the socialists have tried for 150 years has been no less than an unmitigated disaster; the only times such doctrines have been successful is if they use the power of the state to greatly reduce (or eliminate altogether) the freedom of the individual to act in protest of such policies.

                              Russia may have industrialized rapidly, but at the price of 20,000,000+ lives and 60 years of virtual slavery for nearly 300,000,000 under the grip of the Politburo.
                              -rmsharpe

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                The USSR never had the chance to develop on its own terms because it was instantly attacked with intent to destroy, or at least to cripple it.

                                A by-product of this assault was Stalinism, which people mistakenly equate with socialism. I make no excuses for Stalinism, but the pain, suffering and virtual slavery for the 00's of 000,000's under the grip of developing industrial capitalism helps to put things into perspective. Neither do attempts at socialism have a monopoly on authoritarianism.

                                It's also worth mentioning that Russia (mostly agrarian-feudal) was not the sort of economy that Marx imagined to be an appropriate launch-pad for a realistic attempt at socialism. Advanced capitalism was a pre-requisite in Marx's view - which brings us back to the point inadvertantly raised in the OP about the progressive nature of capitalism from a Marxist viewpoint.

                                There has been no serious attempt at socialism in history on the terms that Marx envisaged, and personally I suspect that we may still be hundreds of years short of the conditions which might make it fully viable.

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