Hypocrites and American politics

[Patroklos]

Wait a second... so you take the least hyped upon (by the SBVT) Swift Boat incident and use that to show the SBVT were correct?! What about how they were ripped apart in criticizing Kerry's Purple Heart, or Silver Star, or Bronze Star?

Actually it was just the first thing the quick scroll landed on, that how easy it was to find factual critisism. So are you then admitting that Kerry lied?

And I consider the Kerry Purple Heart/Silver Star/Bronze Star critisism valid, even if I think it is valid only amoungst the veteran community (which of corse the SBVT are). I never said I LIKED the SBVT.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It is, and that article doens't exonerate Kerry, it actually highlights how easy it was to abuse the system back then. Which of course was not uncommon in all sorts of spheres those days, but then again all those people were not trying to bouy a presidential campaign on that abuse (some would say inoccent abuse) either.

I want you to find a US infantrymen in Iraq with three purple hearts. Of those with even one, ask them if they got it for an aid station sickcall flesh wound. You Imran, as a civilain, might find Kerry's feats impressive but veterans don't/didn't. Thats just because relative to what they know it isn't, it would be something to jokingly laugh at him about at the VA over friendly conversation.

You mean vets who would and could get Purple Hearts for the SAME thing as Kerry did?! As Elliot said "that was more the rule than the exception".

AFAIK, Kerry used his military experience, not the specific fact that he got a Purple Heart, to buoy his Presidential campaign. References to Purple Hearts were to show that he actually was IN the battle and not just an observer.

The SBVT were coming out with their book "Unfit to Serve" regardless of Kerry's use of his military service... just as some wackos are trying to say McCain sold out his fellow troops and country under torture, regardless of the fact that McCain hasn't made his torture a campaign issue.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Actually it was just the first thing the quick scroll landed on, that how easy it was to find factual critisism. So are you then admitting that Kerry lied?

Nope, as one of the heads of the SBVT said he was in Cambodia on a Swift Boat as well! Though I don't rule out that Kerry may have been mistaken while being on the border of the countries that they may have crossed over (as his fellow boat mates said they could have done so and not known it).

And I consider the Kerry Purple Heart/Silver Star/Bronze Star critisism valid, even if I think it is valid only amoungst the veteran community (which of corse the SBVT are). I never said I LIKED the SBVT.

It's valid even though it is likely that the Purple Hearts gained by members of SBVT were based on a similar standard and probably some of them had similar injuries awarded?

It wasn't because they were outraged veterans that Kerry was pumping up his Purple Heart/Bronze Star/Silver Star, it's because they were REPUBLICAN veterans, who wanted to undercut a Kerry strength by whatever lies and misrepresentations they could.

I consider them to be absolute scum.

And they weren't the only vets, though, of course.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/30/us/politics/30swift.html?pagewanted=2&ref=politics

Regardless of what they thought of Mr. Kerry, many Swift boat veterans objected to the attacks.

“It was unconscionable,” said Stan Collier, who served as an officer in charge on a boat based in Qui Nhon. “I thought those boys struck a new low.”

Mr. Collier considers himself a conservative and did not agree with Mr. Kerry’s politics, but he voted for him to protest the Swift boat campaign. “We’ve all been attributed to the sleaziness that those guys assigned to Kerry,” he said. “I think we’ve all been demeaned.”

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
It's called sarcasm, go jizz off. I hope that you are arrested on some trumped up charge and spend the rest of your life behind bars insisting you are innocent but like cassandra are ignored because of physical uglyness.

In answer to Slowwy's thread about having others' backs, I guess Wiggly Puff's got mine in the non-teh butsecks way.

[Wiglaf]

If I ever got control of a bus, I would not want to be you

[Patroklos]

It's valid even though it is likely that the Purple Hearts gained by members of SBVT were based on a similar standard and probably some of them had similar injuries awarded?

Again like Purple Hearts, not all Bronze Stars are equal (in fact there is a "V" device that makes some very unequal). I have a NAM, can I support a presidential campaign on that?

This might come as a shock to you, but most veterans exagerate their military experiance. Some of this is a natural consequence of it being a personal experiance, and some of it is just squeezing out as much recognition as possible (just like an civilian counterpart would do). Kerry knew his Purple Hearts, while maybe technically valid, were bull**** in a theatre with people getting thier arms blown off. I know people form Afghanistan with gunshot wounds with no PH.

I would also point out that many of Kerry's detractors are his very immediate commanders, and every lax or imprecise report they cite is a direct reflection on their command as a whole, yet they do it anyway. Not to mention these are the people with the most experiance and and know how as well as in the best overall position to know exactly what happened. The normal conspiracy theory faults apply.

It wasn't because they were outraged veterans that Kerry was pumping up his Purple Heart/Bronze Star/Silver Star, it's because they were REPUBLICAN veterans, who wanted to undercut a Kerry strength by whatever lies and misrepresentations they could.

I didn't say SVBT, I said American Legion. Unless you want to pretend the SVBT, Republican Party, Cheney engineered brain chiggers or anyone else has a stranglehold on this large and politically diverse group of veterans and forced them not to endorce Kerry you have to accept that independant and resourced veterans rejected Kerry for good reason.

And if wasn't just the American Legion as Sloww said.

I consider them to be absolute scum.

Again, I didn't say I liked them. Basically what they did was air out family buisness to the public. But once I know it, I know it. And you are on crack if you think Kerry and his surrogates were not playing the veteran card for all it was worth in 2004. The problem was Kerru had a three instead of McCain's ace.

[MrFun]

And you don't think McCain is using his military service for political gain?

[SlowwHand]

Whether for good or bad, one of his captors endorses McCain.

[MrFun]

That's nice. Will you vote for McCain if somehow Bin Laden endorses him too?

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by MrFun
And you don't think McCain is using his military service for political gain?

As he should

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by MrFun
That's nice. Will you vote for McCain if somehow Bin Laden endorses him too?

That's a long leap.

In fact, as was mentioned, not all Purple Hearts are equal. If you slice you finger while opening rations under fire, the medal is awarded.
The citation I 'm most proud of being awarded is the Outstanding Unit citation. There's not a lot of room for deviation of definition, and it's a team deal. ALL in the unit did well.

[Berzerker]

he took shrapnel in the arm, thats good enough for me... I dont know if I'd report that for a medal but if other guys were getting em for similar wounds I might have. If they need to make distinctions between the severity of wounds, so be it... That dont mean the wound didn't happen, and the risk of death.

The Kerry thing was payback because of what he said when he got back, his reporting of that veteran's conference of soldiers talking about what they did and/or saw. I'm not sure how veterans can confuse that with themselves, if they didn't do anything really wrong they shouldn't complain when others admit or confess their sins.

[Bosh]

to impune the spotless record (unlike Kerry)

Well crashing one's plane five times is certainly indicative of something...

[DRoseDARs]

To be fair, he was shot down the fifth time. The fact he survived the previous four crashes he caused himself is just a fluke.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by MrFun
And you don't think McCain is using his military service for political gain?

He has mentioned it a lot.