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  • Bush Lied...

    'Bush Lied'? If Only It Were That Simple.
    By Fred Hiatt
    Monday, June 9, 2008; Page A17

    Search the Internet for "Bush Lied" products, and you will find sites that offer more than a thousand designs. The basic "Bush Lied, People Died" bumper sticker is only the beginning.

    Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence, set out to provide the official foundation for what has become not only a thriving business but, more important, an article of faith among millions of Americans. And in releasing a committee report Thursday, he claimed to have accomplished his mission, though he did not use the L-word.

    "In making the case for war, the administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when it was unsubstantiated, contradicted or even nonexistent," he said.

    There's no question that the administration, and particularly Vice President Cheney, spoke with too much certainty at times and failed to anticipate or prepare the American people for the enormous undertaking in Iraq.
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    But dive into Rockefeller's report, in search of where exactly President Bush lied about what his intelligence agencies were telling him about the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, and you may be surprised by what you find.

    On Iraq's nuclear weapons program? The president's statements "were generally substantiated by intelligence community estimates."

    On biological weapons, production capability and those infamous mobile laboratories? The president's statements "were substantiated by intelligence information."

    On chemical weapons, then? "Substantiated by intelligence information."

    On weapons of mass destruction overall (a separate section of the intelligence committee report)? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information." Delivery vehicles such as ballistic missiles? "Generally substantiated by available intelligence." Unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to deliver WMDs? "Generally substantiated by intelligence information."

    As you read through the report, you begin to think maybe you've mistakenly picked up the minority dissent. But, no, this is the Rockefeller indictment. So, you think, the smoking gun must appear in the section on Bush's claims about Saddam Hussein's alleged ties to terrorism.

    But statements regarding Iraq's support for terrorist groups other than al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists with ties to al-Qaeda "were substantiated by the intelligence assessments," and statements regarding Iraq's contacts with al-Qaeda "were substantiated by intelligence information." The report is left to complain about "implications" and statements that "left the impression" that those contacts led to substantive Iraqi cooperation.

    In the report's final section, the committee takes issue with Bush's statements about Saddam Hussein's intentions and what the future might have held. But was that really a question of misrepresenting intelligence, or was it a question of judgment that politicians are expected to make?

    After all, it was not Bush, but Rockefeller, who said in October 2002: "There has been some debate over how 'imminent' a threat Iraq poses. I do believe Iraq poses an imminent threat. I also believe after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. . . . To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? I do not think we can."

    Rockefeller was reminded of that statement by the committee's vice chairman, Sen. Christopher S. Bond (R-Mo.), who with three other Republican senators filed a minority dissent that includes many other such statements from Democratic senators who had access to the intelligence reports that Bush read. The dissenters assert that they were cut out of the report's preparation, allowing for a great deal of skewing and partisanship, but that even so, "the reports essentially validate what we have been saying all along: that policymakers' statements were substantiated by the intelligence."

    Why does it matter, at this late date? The Rockefeller report will not cause a spike in "Bush Lied" mug sales, and the Bond dissent will not lead anyone to scrape the "Bush Lied" bumper sticker off his or her car.

    But the phony "Bush lied" story line distracts from the biggest prewar failure: the fact that so much of the intelligence upon which Bush and Rockefeller and everyone else relied turned out to be tragically, catastrophically wrong.

    And it trivializes a double dilemma that President Bill Clinton faced before Bush and that President Obama or McCain may well face after: when to act on a threat in the inevitable absence of perfect intelligence and how to mobilize popular support for such action, if deemed essential for national security, in a democracy that will always, and rightly, be reluctant.

    For the next president, it may be Iran's nuclear program, or al-Qaeda sanctuaries in Pakistan, or, more likely, some potential horror that today no one even imagines. When that time comes, there will be plenty of warnings to heed from the Iraq experience, without the need to fictionalize more.


    IMO, the most important part of the text:
    But the phony "Bush lied" story line distracts from the biggest prewar failure: when to act on a threat in the inevitable absence of perfect intelligence and how to mobilize popular support for such action, if deemed essential for national security, in a democracy that will always, and rightly, be reluctant.
    IMO, maybe I have authoritarian instinct but I believe that not all lie are bad, and sometimes, in a democracy, you must lie in order to guarantee the safety of your own population. Since the cost of war is so high, that nobody want to sacrifice some of their comfort in order the preserve the peace of a nation. Everybody want to profit from peace, but few people want to pay the price of it.... people are usually Freerider.

    The just level of security vs freedom is an art to juggle with.
    bleh

  • #2
    "Lied" is the German word for song.

    Carry on.
    Blah

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Bush Lied...

      Originally posted by CrONoS

      IMO, maybe I have authoritarian instinct but I believe that not all lie are bad, and sometimes, in a democracy, you must lie in order to guarantee the safety of your own population. Since the cost of war is so high, that nobody want to sacrifice some of their comfort in order the preserve the peace of a nation. Everybody want to profit from peace, but few people want to pay the price of it.... people are usually Freerider.

      The just level of security vs freedom is an art to juggle with.
      While I see your point I can't agree with it. The last thing I want is a president or group of government insiders deciding when it is ok to go to war then lie about it.

      They have the power to go without lying if they believe it is the right thing, they just might not get re-elected.

      BTW, one of the theories about democracy being a superior form of government was specifically that it would lead to less wars because it would, in theory leave the decision to a certain extent in the hands of the people who had to fight the war.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yeah, but "Bush relied on faulty intelligence" doesn't have the rhyming potential of "Bush lied"
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re lies, IMO it's one thing to say that lies happen in politics, even sometimes for 'good' purposes (though that's a question of defining 'good'; and if that's the case here is a completely different matter); it's another thing to endorse it generally and in particular when the consequences are that heavy.
          Blah

          Comment


          • #6
            A president doesn't "know" everything. He's a manager of people at the highest level. He gathers information from people who are supposed to know, contemplates the information, and makes a decision based on this information.

            In my electronic manufacturing world, I'm not going to make a quality decision until Quality people have given their input, as a for instance. If they're wrong, I'm likely to be wrong. It's what mamagers do, or should do. Gather facts from "experts" in a particular area and make a decision.
            Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
            "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
            He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

            Comment


            • #7
              [Jesus]Let he who never lied cast the first stone[/Jesus]
              Let us be lazy in everything, except in loving and drinking, except in being lazy – Lessing

              Comment


              • #8
                some people have gone over board with the accussations but it is clear that the administration deliberately attempted to fix intelligence by eliminating reports which didn't agree with their position and only showing ones which agreed. The Niger uranium claim Bush made in his 2002 state of the union address is an excellent example. The CIA, British MI6, and the Italian secret service all said this report was based on one man who was a known liar and that the report was not creditable yet Bush used it anyway claiming Saddam was going to give a nuke to terrorists. They also deliberately lied claiming Saddam was behind 9/11 when he had nothing to do with it.

                We're not talking about an honest mistake made due to murky intelligence. We're taking about deliberate manipulation in order to achieve a political end. To pretend that's not dishonest is... well... dishonest.
                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I call ****ing bull****. Anyone remember Tony Blair brandishing an undergraduate essay from the mid-90s as "evidence" in a speech he gave?
                  In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Oncle Boris
                    I call ****ing bull****. Anyone remember Tony Blair brandishing an undergraduate essay from the mid-90s as "evidence" in a speech he gave?
                    What do you call Bull****, Rockfeller report?
                    bleh

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nostromo
                      [Jesus]Let he who never lied cast the first stone[/Jesus]
                      *Lefty crushes Nostromo with a large boulder*
                      Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
                      Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
                      "Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
                      From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What Nostromo said is the most truthfull statement in this thread.

                        Cronos,

                        It's not just one lie to protect the polulation. What a line of crap that is. What it is is one huge load of lies designed to keep power. Please stop with the ridiculous crap.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Let sleeping dogs lie?
                          I've allways wanted to play "Russ Meyer's Civilization"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            All politicians lie, almost constantly. In fact, most USians lie a lot.

                            Here's a couple of suggestions as to why that is true.

                            "So why do they tell these elaborate stories that turn out to be lies? One reason that has been widely suggested is hubris: These statements often come from powerful and prideful men and women who perhaps think that they can get away with almost anything.

                            But experts cite other reasons. "America has always been a nation of promoters. Self-promotion has always been important; the self-made man has been central and constructing your public image has been part of that. Look at the curriculum vitaes people make up for the jobs they want!" says Robert Kugelmann, chairman of the department of psychology at the University of Dallas and a highly regarded expert on stress."



                            http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...14/ai_20301295

                            I think the second reason is true for most of us. In fact, we are expected to tell promote ourselves. Consider the popular interview question, "tell us why you are the best person for the job." WTF?! I don't even know who else is applying or how qualified they are!
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SlowwHand
                              A president doesn't "know" everything. He's a manager of people at the highest level. He gathers information from people who are supposed to know, contemplates the information, and makes a decision based on this information.
                              Exactly the reason why it's important to surround oneself with quality people.
                              Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh

                              Comment

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