Israel to make a peace offer to Hamas, Lebanon

[Sirotnikov]

So you're saying that Israel has never left its own lands into Palestine?

is this about settlements? because that is not clear.

of course israel has a part in the conflict.
we'll ignore for this sake the history that lead to the creation of settlements, and the fact that the conflict pre-dates 1967.

i just don't think israel is to blame for this conflict being unsolved until now. i think israel made a serious attempt to solve this beginning with Oslo, and that failed due to Palestinians being unwise and unprepared to compromise.

What ever settlements there are, Israel has proved numerously it is willing and able to disband them. It did so in Sinai, and it did so in Gaza, and it will do it in the west bank and golan heights probably.

But there's no way an Israeli politic is going to take head on the Israeli right wing settlers, if he hasn't a good peace agreement - ie end of conflict / no right of return.

Jerusalem is probably something that we'll have to be creative about.

the rest can be solved.

[Asher]

i just don't think israel is to blame for this conflict being unsolved until now.

Of course you wouldn't, you live there and you've served in the military there.

The very existence of Israel is a source of conflict, given how it was created. You guys have exacerbated this by driving bulldozers over people's homes (what better way to make yourselves look like villains). You also have a nasty habit of killing women and children. The very fact that you always retaliate when something happens means the Palestinians have something to retaliate against as well. You keep feeding the cycle.

[Sirotnikov]

The very fact that you always retaliate when something happens means the Palestinians have something to retaliate against as well. You keep feeding the cycle.

so do they. that's why it's a cycle

but it's not like we haven't tried countless ways out. i admit we failed some cease fires, but most were indeed failed by palestinians. sometimes we looked the other way even though we had succesfull terrorist attacks.

it is a mistake to watch israel's defense policy in the last several years and apply it to the entire time stretching from 1993.

For the most part, Israel did not retaliate, and looked the other way 90% of the time, until a breaking point in 2002.

there have been dozens of terrorist attacks in the 1993-2000 period that israel has not reacted to violently.

The very existence of Israel is a source of conflict, given how it was created.

ja. against the wishes of its neighbors.

but this has little to do with solving the conflict, unless you suggest israel is disbanded.

You also have a nasty habit of killing women and children.

untrue.
you're welcome to compare the ratio of innocent civilians / militants killed to that of any other conflict or low intensity war. this without talking about actual wars where massacres are horrendous.

btw, the mere fact that there is "a cycle", while israeli could have easily wiped out whole population centers, like Russia has done in Chechnya, suggests that Israel is not in the habit of recklessly killing people.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

so do they. that's why it's a cycle

That is precisely my point. Thank you for conceding that Israel is every bit as responsible here.

[LordShiva]

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles

That is precisely my point. Thank you for conceding that Israel is every bit as responsible here.

thank you for reading the rest of my post, showing how israel atttempted several times to break the cycle, with the other side not committing to the same.


btw, catch up on this:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5203570&page=1

Officials Say "Sleeper Cells" Activated in Canada
By RICHARD ESPOSITO and BRIAN ROSS

June 19, 2008—

Intelligence agencies in the United States and Canada are warning of mounting signs that Hezbollah, backed by Iran, is poised to mount a terror attack against "Jewish targets" somewhere outside the Middle East.

Intelligence officials tell ABC News the group has activated suspected "sleeper cells" in Canada and key operatives have been tracked moving outside the group's Lebanon base to Canada, Europe and Africa.

Officials say Hezbollah is seeking revenge for the February assassination of Hezbollah's military commander, Imad Mugniyah, killed by a car bomb in Damascus, Syria.

The group's leaders blamed Israel, an allegation denied by Israeli officials.

There is no credible information on a specific target, according to the officials.

Suspected Hezbollah operatives have conducted recent surveillance on the Israeli embassy in Ottawa, Canada and on several synagogues in Toronto, according to the officials.
[...]

the article is a bit weird. it goes on to quote different experts and seems to have less and less quotes to support the bold headline it got.
fishy.
but take care.

[Asher]

I wonder if they'll be as ferocious as the hapless "Toronto 18" that were busted a while ago. Scary, them.

Sorry, your fearmongering works in Israel but not here. This is civilized society out west.

[Sirotnikov]

you're doing a very poor job of provoking me, you know.

i thought you'd do better frankly.



here's a thing i bumped into while reading a lebanese article.

http://syriatruth.org/Al-Hakikah/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3559

this is supposedly evidence of the hezbullah communications network, taken from a top secret israeli foreign affairs ministry report.

it is such an incredibly amusing fake that my side hurts.
but apparently it struck waves in lebanese propoganda wars.





this is incredibly fake.

the top features a logo that says "foreign ministry website"
it features the emblem of israel, but not of the MFO
it does not look anywhere similar to actual MFO reports.
it features a fake "TOP SECRET" which is not used.
and most of all, it features incredibly incorrect hebrew.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
you're doing a very poor job of provoking me, you know.

i thought you'd do better frankly.

I'm not trying to provoke you. I'm utterly serious.

Israel's a warn-torn country. For all of the technology you guys have, in some parts of your country women get assaulted for riding a bus. Just one ****ed up place, if you ask me.

[Sirotnikov]

For all of the technology you guys have, in some parts of your country women get assaulted for riding a bus. Just one ****ed up place, if you ask me.

what does that have to do with anything?
first, well done on remembering that thread.

second, israel is small but very varied.

you still have relics of tribes that actually make a lamb sacrifice to Jehova on some holidays.

and you have totally religious neighbourhoods where **** happens.

and you have arab towns where there is often utter lawlessness.

this is mainly because israel has a weak police, a weak prosecution and a very disconnected court system.

i think it is horrible and that israel will self-consume due to lawlessness much before it will be threatened by neighbours

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Shabaa farms were never Lebanese land.
They were Syrian, and there's no reason to return Syrian land to lebanon.

And the Syrians have basically 'handed' it over to the Lebanese IIRC. Or at least they would if it were physically theirs to give!

They used it to shoot Israeli workers in Israeli territory.

That doesn't stop it being their land. When was the last time Syria attacked you (I think I know what your answer will be to that one! )

Both sides are doing something wrong.
They sponsor and arm groups that kill Israelis
We keep their land.

Both sides? Yes I agree, Israel are quite happy to attack both Lebanon and Israel with impunity! At least you ****ers got a bloody nose when you tried to invade Lebanon...

If they want to change that, then it's fine, but I see no reason why should one side be allowed pre-conditions and the other should not.

Again, when was the last time Syrian armed forces attacked Israel?

If Israel forfeits its trading cards in advance, who says Syria stops funding terrorism?

Obviously it is a subject for bi-lateral talks.

Well, you're the ****ers who have their land - maybe if you did leave their land they wouldn't have an excuse to keep attacking you...?

Fact is you need the conflict as a raison d'etre in the first place - you're in no hurry to stop the violence at all.

We are following very well the situation on needed products to prevent lack of food or medicine.

Bollocks, and you know it!

Since Gaza is a hostile entity that is actively and aggressively attacking Israeli territory via rockets, we have very good right to blockade it and prevent things ranging from weapons, to luxury items, which can be used to strengthen the aggressive hostile government of Hamas.

Gaza is not a hostile entity!!! Hamas is, but hey you are doing a bang up job turning the entire population into a hostile entity. But then again: You need the conflict as a raison d'etre in the first place - you're in no hurry to stop the violence at all.

There is absolutely no law that requires one nation to actively support and encourage the existence of a hostile government and military force on its borders.

Er, yeah - well way to turn the population totally against you (the next govt and military forces)...

And Hamas members are still shooting rockets at Israeli population centers, while supposedly offering an olive branch.

In retaliation to your assassination strikes? Or at least who is retaliating to whom is seriously blurred! So you are guilty of hypocrisy.

Btw, that is a false comparison. They are not offering an olive branch, but rather a white flag. And they keep shooting while doing so.

Yeah, funny that, you have pounded them into the ground and killed vastly more women and children by accident than they have on purpose - and still are!

All the while, since the palestinian people have not come to a conclusion that the end of conflict is something worth while to discuss in exchange, we have no obligation to stop building on land we control.

Go and **** yourself! You are an apologist of the worst kind! There is absolutely NO EXCUSE to actively build settlements on this land!!! No excuse whatsoever! Each new settler house you build might as well be raping or killing a Palestinian - the difference is that Israel aggresses with bricks and mortar, not bombs and bullets...

Whilst controlling land for security reasons alone can be justified for those reasons alone - colonising it (like also the Shabaa farms and the Golan Heights!) is absolutely NOT!

Your stance is frankly disgusting, but not altogether surprising given the next comments...

We control that land according to agreements signed with the Palestinians, and until we can reach better agreements, where we secede more land and they promise stop fighting, then I see no reason to stop building on what can be our land.

After all, it's not like we stole that land from a previous owner. Jordan, the closest thing to a previous legal owner, has pulled its hands and declared it has no claims in the west bank.

As there is no recognized government, nor any historic nation that land belonged to, that still exists, we are more than happy to settle in between Palestinian towns.

@ helping the west bank flourish.

Some of the land is indeed grabbed for security.

Other than that, until the Palestinians are acknowledged as the rightful owners of that land in a peace agreement or an international declaration that acknowledges the land belongs to a Palestinian nation - I see no legal reason not to grab.

All deliberately designed to provoke - just like the settlements are to the Palestinians. Nice one...



So, when are you running for political office then?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Felch
I don't understand why you care so much. Are you a Palestinian?

You don't understand because either you're thick, or you don't get out much...

Get clued up, or don't bother attacking me if you don't know wtf you're talking about.

Do you get this upset by the horrible things that go on elsewhere in the world - Chinese occupation of Tibet, massacres and systemic rape in eastern Congo, government brutality in Zimbabwe, to name a few.

I do, actually, moron.

Difference is, that when I try, say a Zim thread, nobody else on this forum gives a flying **** - essentially because we all agree, it falls like a lead balloon...

Unless you're saying you actually admire Mugabe or something - then we can start something and I can rip you a new anus...

What is it about Israel that makes you so angry? I mean, they do some bad stuff, but they're not the worst ever by a long shot. They certainly are more restrained that the US would be.

Because they should now better given the recent history of the Jewish people...

Even the UK herded the Boers into concentration camps back when you "stole their land!"

That was over 100 years ago for a start, we're not supposed to be barbarians in this day and age - present company excepted.

Are you mad about Edward I turning your country into a petty vassal? He stole your land!

No, that was a very long time ago for a start, and frankly Llywelyn ap Gruffydd asked for it - but then you're too much of a moron to actually understand wtf you're talking about...

Now be a good little boy and **** off back under whichever slimy rock you crawled out from.

[snoopy369]

Let's keep the **** out of this please... if you can't discuss it without calling people names, don't discuss it here.

[Sirotnikov]

can rules be enforced with regards to mobius please?

neither asher nor i used foul language or personal attacks.
no one in this thread called anyone "you ****ers" or said "go **** yourself" until dear old capital M arrived.

everyone else handled themselves just fine without his comments. i see no reason to keep them here.

i also strongly suggest you enforce rules better than strong worded notes to people. if it had been asher he would have been banned.

mobius should not get away with personal attacks against me or my country. this is definitely not a first time for him.


if you are moderators, then i suggest you moderate.
that is if you want people to keep coming here.
or you can continue making more sub-fora or something important like that

[Imran Siddiqui]

How can you have a "personal" attack against the country?