Israel to make a peace offer to Hamas, Lebanon

[Sirotnikov]

we actually made a peace offer to Lebanon publically which they refused.

we are in the middle of low-level but open peace talks with Syria.

we are in the middle of making progress in dialogue with abu-mazen.

we're doing lots of stuff.

and we're on the verge of a deal with Hezbullah.

[chequita guevara]

Wow, the results that happen when you stop insisting on all of your goals as conditions to begin negotiations.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Wow, the results that happen when you stop insisting on all of your goals as conditions to begin negotiations.

it seems all the other sides are insisting on their goals as pre-conditions as well:

lebanon insisted israel forfeits the shabaa farms (which were never lebanese) as a pre-condition for talks

syria insists israel forfeits the golan heights as a pre-condition for talks.

hamas insisted that israel lifts the gaza blockade as a pre-condition for a cease fire.


it's your bias that makes you see their goals as inherently legitimate, while Israeli goals (consisting of "first stop shooting at us") are apparently illegitimate.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
it seems all the other sides are insisting on their goals as pre-conditions as well:

lebanon insisted israel forfeits the shabaa farms (which were never lebanese) as a pre-condition for talks

You stole their land!

syria insists israel forfeits the golan heights as a pre-condition for talks.

You stole their land!

hamas insisted that israel lifts the gaza blockade as a pre-condition for a cease fire.

You are starving the entire population of Gaza - punishing them as if every last man woman and child is guilty of whatever crimes you accuse them of...

it's your bias that makes you see their goals as inherently legitimate, while Israeli goals (consisting of "first stop shooting at us") are apparently illegitimate.

But you're still blowing up Hamas members with one hand whilst the other offers an olive branch, you hypocritical apologist - sorry, Israeli Intelligence officer, or whatever it is you do...

All the while, your scumbag govt continues to build settlements on occupied land, which is one of the real 'hidden' crimes and one of the principle provocations in this sorry state of affairs.

What is your justification for the continuation of this settlement building programme, as well as continued land grabs for 'security' Mr 'Look a me, I'm not biased in the slightest!'...

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
You stole their land!

Shabaa farms were never Lebanese land.
They were Syrian, and there's no reason to return Syrian land to lebanon.

You stole their land!

They used it to shoot Israeli workers in Israeli territory.

Both sides are doing something wrong.
They sponsor and arm groups that kill Israelis
We keep their land.

If they want to change that, then it's fine, but I see no reason why should one side be allowed pre-conditions and the other should not.

If Israel forfeits its trading cards in advance, who says Syria stops funding terrorism?

Obviously it is a subject for bi-lateral talks.

You are starving the entire population of Gaza - punishing them as if every last man woman and child is guilty of whatever crimes you accuse them of...

We are following very well the situation on needed products to prevent lack of food or medicine.

Since Gaza is a hostile entity that is actively and aggressively attacking Israeli territory via rockets, we have very good right to blockade it and prevent things ranging from weapons, to luxury items, which can be used to strengthen the aggressive hostile government of Hamas.

There is absolutely no law that requires one nation to actively support and encourage the existence of a hostile government and military force on its borders.

But you're still blowing up Hamas members with one hand whilst the other offers an olive branch, you hypocritical apologist - sorry, Israeli Intelligence officer, or whatever it is you do...

And Hamas members are still shooting rockets at Israeli population centers, while supposedly offering an olive branch.

Btw, that is a false comparison. They are not offering an olive branch, but rather a white flag. And they keep shooting while doing so.

All the while, your scumbag govt continues to build settlements on occupied land, which is one of the real 'hidden' crimes and one of the principle provocations in this sorry state of affairs.

All the while, since the palestinian people have not come to a conclusion that the end of conflict is something worth while to discuss in exchange, we have no obligation to stop building on land we control.

We control that land according to agreements signed with the Palestinians, and until we can reach better agreements, where we secede more land and they promise stop fighting, then I see no reason to stop building on what can be our land.

After all, it's not like we stole that land from a previous owner. Jordan, the closest thing to a previous legal owner, has pulled its hands and declared it has no claims in the west bank.

As there is no recognized government, nor any historic nation that land belonged to, that still exists, we are more than happy to settle in between Palestinian towns.

@ helping the west bank flourish.

What is your justification for the continuation of this settlement building programme, as well as continued land grabs for 'security' Mr 'Look a me, I'm not biased in the slightest!'...

Some of the land is indeed grabbed for security.

Other than that, until the Palestinians are acknowledged as the rightful owners of that land in a peace agreement or an international declaration that acknowledges the land belongs to a Palestinian nation - I see no legal reason not to grab.




But more seriously, It's sort of a chicken and egg scenario. We're in a deadlock.

We want violence against us ceased. Our enemies want some of their stuff back.

It's obvious that the trade is inevitable. But neither side is willing to be grown up.

Now, Syrians had it going for them by being quiet, but they are increasingly aiding groups like Hezbullah and Hamas. So I see no reason not to demand they stop, if they want the Golan Heights back.

The Palestinians were not especially smart. Instead of continuing negotiations which could have ended years of relatively peaceful occupation, they hoped they could improve their arguing stance by applying violence. That did not work out well for them, since now the Israeli presence is much less peaceful than it ever was prior to 2000.

And the final argument is that a land grab, be it evil as it may, is a reversible process. A terrorist attack is not.

[Fake Boris]

Honestly, I don't see why you shouldn't accept to give back some land, given that you can retake it easily if they don't hold their side of the deal. And moreover, you'd have for once a decent casus belli.

[Asher]

Why should anyone care about this?

A cease fire will be signed, and one Israeli solder will shoot someone who he deemed threatening or some Palestinian will independently blow himself up and it's war again.

To be honest, I'm not sure why anyone pays attention to the Israel/Palestine region. It's children with guns on both sides, even if they're old. No one there has a ****ing clue.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Honestly, I don't see why you shouldn't accept to give back some land, given that you can retake it easily if they don't hold their side of the deal. And moreover, you'd have for once a decent casus belli.

well i thought so too, and i supported the gaza withdrawal and still think it's a good idea.

but Gaza is proving to be a tough nut.
we can retake it.
but it will be more bloody than if we had never left.
and i think that we'll get tons of bad press if we do, because there's gonna be lots of casualties because the whole area is ****ing mined and there's gonna be house to house close quarters combat.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles
Why should anyone care about this?

I agree.

we get on the world news too damn easily.

makes the conflict look totally disproportionate to actual problems like stuff going on on Africa, or Tibet.

A cease fire will be signed, and one Israeli solder will shoot someone who he deemed threatening or some Palestinian will independently blow himself up and it's war again.

To be honest, I'm not sure why anyone pays attention to the Israel/Palestine region. It's children with guns on both sides, even if they're old. No one there has a ****ing clue.

i agree in the general sense.

i think we have a better clue that others, but it's hard to keep peace one-sidedly.

and it's damn hard to keep peace when some of your soldiers are stupid and poorly behaved, and it's hard to keep peace when you have settlers that are really good at exploiting loopholes.

[Asher]

It takes two to tango. The problem is both sides think they're the good ones.

Both are clearly evil. I just don't care what happens there any more.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles
Why should anyone care about this?

Oil.

[Asher]

Got enough of that, thanks.

Israel and Palestine don't really have a lot last I checked.

[Felch]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
You stole their land!

You stole their land!

You are starving the entire population of Gaza - punishing them as if every last man woman and child is guilty of whatever crimes you accuse them of...

I don't understand why you care so much. Are you a Palestinian? Do you get this upset by the horrible things that go on elsewhere in the world - Chinese occupation of Tibet, massacres and systemic rape in eastern Congo, government brutality in Zimbabwe, to name a few.

What is it about Israel that makes you so angry? I mean, they do some bad stuff, but they're not the worst ever by a long shot. They certainly are more restrained that the US would be. Even the UK herded the Boers into concentration camps back when you "stole their land!"

Are you mad about Edward I turning your country into a petty vassal? He stole your land!

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Mr Snuggles
It takes two to tango. The problem is both sides think they're the good ones.

Both are clearly evil. I just don't care what happens there any more.

what's your definition of tango?

it certainly takes two to make peace

war only needs one side to start it, and the other side immediately is dragged into it.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

what's your definition of tango?

it certainly takes two to make peace

war only needs one side to start it, and the other side immediately is dragged into it.

So you're saying that Israel has never left its own lands into Palestine?

No, both Israel and Palestine are to be blamed here. You're an utter fool if you think Israel is not at fault here at all, and it's the Palestinians that are the sole reason the conflict exists.