Is D&D fun? I'm thinking about getting into it.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Wraith
Unfortunately, this all makes it sound like they're focusing more on the dungeon-crawl, hack-and-slash stuff than the roleplaying stuff. Probably makes it easier to license the rules to computer game companies...

This is a common criticism that puzzles me. How do combat rules affect your ability to have roleplaying? The quality of the roleplaying has nothing to do with the rules, it's reliant instead on the people playing. Either the people playing are fun, or they're not. But no ruleset is going to make a fun group suck, or a sucky group fun.

If anything the new edition keeps the game moving, keeps everybody involved and interested. For example, magic missle is now an at-will power for wizards. It's been nerfed though, to require a roll with your intelligence bonus, against the target's reflex save. So it gives a wizard something to do in combat that fits with being a wizard (i.e. magic) instead of just being a one hit wonder who then is relegated to crossbow or quarterstaff duty. If you think it's better to have a level one wizard cast a spell or two, and then be next to worthless, by all means play earlier editions.

Think for a second if this were reversed. Imagine if 4e were the original rules, and WotC came out with 1st or 2nd edition as their "new" ruleset. Would that be an improvement?

Also, fireball isn't at-will. It's a daily spell. INT vs. Reflex, 3d6 plus INT damage, burst 3 with a range of 20.

[Dis]

ya I don't mind wizards being more powerful. The notion was that wizards start off weak and become insanely powerful at the end. Which they do to an extent. Though even at the end they are limited by memorization per level. So they still can't go for an infinite amount of time like a fighter can.

[DarkCloud]

Actually, the rules do have a way of influencing what style of game is easier to play.

White Wolf games are better known for roleplaying because they give the players rewards for roleplaying. In DnD you get rewarded for optimizing your character, not for roleplaying Unless everyone in you party wants to roleplay, you'll be penalized for creating a sub-optimal build.

DnD is more of a tactical game than a RPG.

Exalted is the better game for roleplayers... but its dice rolling and combat system is crazy.

--
Wraith- I tried 4E. It's a good game. It's not really Dnd though- it moves more toward miniatures and tactical simulation . It has good things about it and poor. It does a nice thing toward using "skill challenges" but just feels very different from regular DnD with the way they balanced the characters (to make them blander).

If you think it's better to have a level one wizard cast a spell or two, and then be next to worthless, by all means play earlier editions.

You had a crossbow

---
You have a point and everyone sort of realized it- wizards weren't fun to play at level 1-3. Pathfinder- 3.75 from Paizo, attempts to fix this. I think they do a good job updating the game. You can download their rulebook for free on the paizo.com website. (Just search Pathfinder RPG).

[Felch]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
White Wolf games are better known for roleplaying because they give the players rewards for roleplaying. In DnD you get rewarded for optimizing your character, not for roleplaying Unless everyone in you party wants to roleplay, you'll be penalized for creating a sub-optimal build.

This is absolutely true. I suppose that might put a lot of people off, but I've never been that into making weird builds. Unless I want the challenge, or the change of pace, I usually just make a character that is 90% standard. That said, I'm not into min-maxing either.

D&D is more of a tactical game than some of the others out there, but that traces back to its roots if you think about it. It has always emphasized the combat aspects of things more than anything else (at least in core rules). Personally I think it's fun, and if you have interesting tactical challenges, it's a very deep game with a lot of variety.

To be honest, most of my experience playing is on the PC. PC games get boring because they tend to throw a lot of hack and slash your way, especially NWN. I'd like to see a PC game that treated combat as seriously as Final Fantasy Tactics or something. That would really put the rules system to good use.

[The Mad Monk]

When ever I wanted to play a magic user in 1st edition AD&D, I would always dual-class as something else first. That made the early levels far less painful.

[Lord Avalon]

MURPHY'S RULES



There was also another one that went something like: In D&D* the average 13th** level fighter can survive a fall from any height.

*one of the early versions, forget which
**don't remember if it was 13th or higher

[Alinestra Covelia]

That's another reason I don't like the D&D classes. They're pretty hidebound, and you just have to take it on faith that the designers got them balanced. GURPS allows a lot more user customization with the various perks and traits.

If you want a magic-user who can cast spells and wave a sword around and sneak up on people to cut off their heads, you can do that without having to contort your way through three separate classes to do it.

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, the characters should be dependent on the RP and the setting, not the system.

That being said, there is some enjoyment to be had in figuring out great builds/etc. It is just different then RPing.

JM

[Alinestra Covelia]

My friend Bing showed me a 3E D&D build called Pun-Pun.

It made my head hurt.

[Jon Miller]

Was it punny?

I had a freind who designed a build that had 20 attacks or something silly like that.

JM

[Alinestra Covelia]

Pun-Pun the Kobold. The most powerful D&D character ever.

[Jon Miller]

That is just wrong.

JM

[Wraith]

--"This is a common criticism that puzzles me. How do combat rules affect your ability to have roleplaying?"

Others have answered, but yeah. It's not the combat rules per-say, but the system definitely has an influence, especially on beginner groups. Even if they've got someone who will become a good DM, a group that's just getting started with AD&D will definitely tend to the dungeon-crawl hack-and-slash style. 4e just sounds like it'll be more so.

--" If you think it's better to have a level one wizard cast a spell or two, and then be next to worthless, by all means play earlier editions. "

Depends what kind of balance you're looking for. With most of the AD&D settings, wizards are supposed to be one-hit wonders until they get fairly high level. It's meant to be a long-term power class, but the penalty for being able to toss around meteor swarms and power words is taking a long time to get to that point.

--"it moves more toward miniatures and tactical simulation ."

Which is fine for those who want to play a tactical sim, but there's plenty of wargames out already that have a lot more history and refinement behind them. Not that they can't be fun, but they're not what I'm looking for. My BattleTech and Car Wars time was devoted mostly to vehicle design rather than actually playing for a reason ^_^

--"but I've never been that into making weird builds."

Tastes differ, which is fine, but I love weird builds. It's why Changeling is my favorite White Wolf series (not that I've ever found a group willing to play it) and I have games like Toon and the Discworld GURPS pack. I really don't like min/maxing characters (the GURPS quirks system is great fun), and when we had the PBEM game here I threw in a few curves even though it was an AD&D system.

--"PC games get boring because they tend to throw a lot of hack and slash your way, especially NWN."

Definitely true, but at least NWN allows some non-combat options. I just wish more module makers would allow for proper use of persuade/intimidate type skills (which my main NWN character had a lot of points invested in).

--"There was also another one that went something like"

Yes, high level characters in most systems get into the superhuman levels pretty quickly.

--"That's another reason I don't like the D&D classes."

Understandable, and that's probably why the prestige classes were introduced. Unfortunately, the most interesting ones don't translate well to CRPGs.

--"Pun-Pun the Kobold. The most powerful D&D character ever."

Heh. True munchkin. Which just forces me to mention Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins.

Wraith
You've got to know the rules before you can break them - otherwise it's no fun

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by Wraith

--" If you think it's better to have a level one wizard cast a spell or two, and then be next to worthless, by all means play earlier editions. "

Depends what kind of balance you're looking for. With most of the AD&D settings, wizards are supposed to be one-hit wonders until they get fairly high level. It's meant to be a long-term power class, but the penalty for being able to toss around meteor swarms and power words is taking a long time to get to that point.

Pathfinder fixes this, arguably in a better fashion than 4E managed to do. They give the wizards more HP and a few more things they can do at low levels without making them overly deadly.


--"it moves more toward miniatures and tactical simulation ."

My BattleTech and Car Wars time was devoted mostly to vehicle design rather than actually playing for a reason ^_^

Ah, I loved Battle Tech. It's one of the most elegantly designed and easy to hop into games that I know of. WarMachine is nice, but BattleTech is just so much more streamlined.

--"but I've never been that into making weird builds."

Tastes differ, which is fine, but I love weird builds. It's why Changeling is my favorite White Wolf series (not that I've ever found a group willing to play it)

Changeling's a good, underrepresented series. I have the book, never played it, but I did play in a World of Darkness LARP that involved that system... among others (60 people running around- 25 Vampires, 13 changelings, 20 werewolf players (from the bears, to the bastet, to the corax (3), to a rat (1), an anansi (1)... basically beast force.) Each book setting had their own interconnected storylines over the three night event.

The changeling characters were unique. 3 of them were from texas, If I recall correctly. I spent about 1/2 of the second night stuck on their storyline due to an accident... I was hanging near the changeling's casino and walking and talking with one of them when a vampire hijacked my "contact" and "strongly insisted" I come along with him... or else (bad news).

and I have games like Toon

Toon. Why do changeling players always like toon?

and the Discworld GURPS pack. I really don't like min/maxing characters (the GURPS quirks system is great fun), and when we had the PBEM game here I threw in a few curves even though it was an AD&D system.

I've played Hero Discworld, but not the GURPS one, from what I saw, they looked very similar.

There was a PBEM game on apolyton?

Best,
dc

[Theben]

Excerpts from an old Dragon magazine:
Famous Last Words


"They're just trolls."
"What does this lever do?"
"Press the red button 1st, then the blue... no, wait!"
"Brak? That's a stupid name for a barbarian."
"What luck: a demon prince! If we kill him we'll get a ton of treasure and experience points!"
"Why did our torches turn blue?"
"They're just kobolds."