"The illusion that is Barack Obama"

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I would say that would leave us with a situation where honest people would begin to run for office.

Did you miss the underlying premise that honest people are not interested in office?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel




Which presidents have extended which wars?

It's a matter of public record that Johnson comtemplated bringing our troups back from Vietnam but told his advisors that it would mean not getting reelected.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Darius871


Did you miss the underlying premise that honest people are not interested in office?

They are not interested because they can't win.

[Bosh]

tldr

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Kidicious
They are not interested because they can't win.

That's where we disagree; I'd posit that there are in fact deeper psychodynamics which drive inherently power-hungry sociopathic sharks to where the power is, and which make honest people somewhat wary of power. Even if honest people could win, it simply wouldn't have significant appeal to them when compared to a simple private-sector job and time to spend raising their families. Snoopy summed it up best:

Originally posted by snoopy369
The ultimate question:

Why do you run for office? It pays poorly, has long hours, and most politicians need to keep working their day job excepting very high level ones (even most state legislators work a real job) or task-oriented folks (ie, assessor).

The answer:
People who want power over others (to a high degree), or people who are willing to be corrupt.

The former are willing to do most anything to get power (or at least do more than most are willing to do), and thus happily lie; the latter obviously will lie.

Hence, only liars will become politicians.

[rah]

Most honest people also don't want to be scrutinized like most policiticans. Honest people know that the one bad judgement they had would be exposed. Most power hungery people don't think it will and figure they can lie about it if it does.

[Kinjiru]

The cynicism in this thread is amazing. Is there no one here who believes that some people choose politics as a profession because they genuinely wish to help people in bad situations? Given some of the earlier responses here, I guess I need to state that I am genuinely asking the question, not being sarcastic.

It is true that there are a great many liars, power-mad graspers and ego-maniacs in the political world, but the same is true in any profession. I really do believe that some people simply see the political arena as the best way to help a great many people - via setting policy.

Which category does Obama fall into? I'm not sure. His message is appealing, but I wish there was more substance backing up the rhetoric.

Clinton is definitely in the former camp, in my book. She wants power and has demonstrated a great capacity to seek it at all costs.

McCain is a man that I used to respect a great deal. His moves to the right during this election cycle though, have put me off on him. Either he truly believes in a zero-sum geo-political world (which I cannot subscribe to) or he has compromised his positions to gain the support of the hard-liners in the party (something I never would have expected of him).

In the end, I believe that the chief role of the President is to set the tone for the nation. Any real power the office has is severely constrained by the Senate and the Joint Chiefs. So if we look at the candidates from this light, I see the choices as:
- hardline continuation of the (desire for) expansion of Pax Americana
- a ruling class ethic where the Executive vision should not be challenged
- a desire to re-engage the engines of diplomacy

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Darius871


That's where we disagree; I'd posit that there are in fact deeper psychodynamics which drive inherently power-hungry sociopathic sharks to where the power is, and which make honest people somewhat wary of power. Even if honest people could win, it simply wouldn't have significant appeal to them when compared to a simple private-sector job and time to spend raising their families. Snoopy summed it up best:

There are people who actually want to serve their country.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kinjiru
Is there no one here who believes that some people choose politics as a profession because they genuinely wish to help people in bad situations?

That's what they all say. They tell themselves that too. But then when push comes to shove they are dishonest to get or keep their positions of power. What we need is people who actually see holding office as serving the country, not themselves.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Kinjiru
The cynicism in this thread is amazing. Is there no one here who believes that some people choose politics as a profession because they genuinely wish to help people in bad situations? Given some of the earlier responses here, I guess I need to state that I am genuinely asking the question, not being sarcastic.

If they genuinely want to help people, they become Teachers, Doctors, or Social Workers. Becoming a politician definitely is not a good way to help people.

.

I'm certain a few people do so, of course (and much more so in small local things like Sheriff or whatnot). However, I would venture to guess that, at the national level, the nmuber of people who are as you say 'truly wanting to help people' can be counted on one hand.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369


If they genuinely want to help people, they become Teachers, Doctors, or Social Workers. Becoming a politician definitely is not a good way to help people.

A politician can do as much good as a doctor, Universal Health Care.

[snoopy369]

As usual, you miss the point.

Someone who wants to help someone actually becomes a profession that allows them to directly help people, interactively; they actually enjoy being around people and helping them.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
As usual, you miss the point.

Someone who wants to help someone actually becomes a profession that allows them to directly help people, interactively; they actually enjoy being around people and helping them.

Some people don't like to interact with people, but still like helping them.

[tinyp3nis]

It is scary how guys like Nader etc never even get mentioned in these threads.
Even Jesus Christ could run in there and be regarded as just another politician. Enjoy your fascism I guess?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Some people don't like to interact with people, but still like helping them.

And some of us don't like to interact with people, nor do we like helping them