Europe Without Christianity: Better or Worse?

[Maniac]

Duh they wrote it.

[Nikolai]

The Bible was made with democratic, canonical principles.

[Maniac]

never mind

[Zanarkand]

That being said, I can't really picture Europe without christianity. It would definately be weirder, like Imran said. I don't think I would be very comfortable.

[OzzyKP]

I think the renaissance and enlightenment would have been delayed or not happened at all. Obviously the Crusades helped bring a lot of classical thought back to the west and helped spark the renaissance, but there is a lot of egalitarian thought in the Bible that fostered enlightenment thinking more so than eastern or other religions.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
If Mithraicism, a religion where violence was sometimes practiced during its religious rites and whose primary symbol portrays the killing of an animal, had prevailed instead of Christianity would the Romans have been able raise more Roman troops?

How do you know about that violence was practicioned during its rites? They were a well kept secret, and we know nothing about the rites save for the archaeological remains from buildings were they held their rites.


Also, you are stressing the distrust of political factions too much. The collapse was caused by a wide range of interlocked problems. A demographic crisis in Rome's borders necessitated them to recruit German troops. The demographic decline was caused by and went along with economic decline, changing habits of living (no more large cities, but smaller more fortified settlements), plagues and what not.

Rome's demise was already apparent (in hindsight of course) near the end of the 2nd century. Antonine rule was the most peaceful and prosperous from an economic and urbanistic point of view, but even they could not influence the chain of events. A decline in Roman identity (reinforced by the gift of civil rights to an increasing number of imperial subjects), the exaggerated dependence on slave labour (while lacking new expansion to provide for new cheap slaves), internal problems, bad harvests and demographic pressure amongst Germans to crosse the Rhine-Danube limes, the rise of the mighty Persian Sassanids who replaced the Arsacid Parthians creating in effect a more powerful superpower in the east (the Parthian empire was always a loose and weak political entity) are just a few of the problems that come to mind atm.

Distrust towards political factions was not new and was not the key factor I think. You're right the army was outsourced, and the army morale, reputation, training and leadership was changed, but that's just one of the many factors.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

Where do you got this from? Slavery was never outlawed during the Roman Empire, nor during the Middle Ages. It's a ca. 1800 thing (or later, in the more backward countries).


edit: Today, 120 years ago, Brazil was the last 'western' nation to abolish slavery.

Well, I don't know precisely when, but indeed the european christians did not enslave fellow christians.
The last european slaves where... the slavs. And that is because they were the last europeans to convert.
Around the year 1100, after christianisation of the slavs, the slave market collapsed and the few slaves you may found were from muslim countries.

In 1315, the King Louis X of France declares that 'Nature dictates that everyone is born free'. And since that time 'The french soil liberates the slave who touch it'.
Although there has been violations of that law, slavery is officially outlawed on french soil since then.

In 1500 and the colonisation of the new world, slavery rose again, but not on european soil, and again, not with christian captives.

After that, you are right, it took many more years to completely outlaw slavery, regardless of religion.

[Dr Strangelove]

I think the Western Roman empire would have fallen with or without Christianity, but I doubt Atilla would have seized the throne of the Caesars. Atilla was basically a land pirate. He had ample opportunity to conquer Rome, but settled for money instead.

Without Chritianity Western Europe would have become dominated by Wotanism. I think that science and learning would have suffered gravely. Wotanic culture emphasizes the warrior virtues pretty much to the excluision of everything else. Europe would have remained a savage barbaric continent. I can't imagine a continent dominated by the worshippers of Wotan making much social, technical, or scientific progress.

If we're assuming that Christ had never been born, or that the religion had been eliminated before it spread then it's doubtful that Islam would have arisen either, since history indicates that Mohammed was inspired by stories of Christianity. In the east Byzantium and Persia would battle it out over the Euphrates-Tigris river valley, and possibly Syria, but Persia during this era doesn't seem to have been very ambitious. It's hard to say what a non-Christian Byzantium would have done. Worshipers of Mithra might have undertaken a historic mission to resurrect the full glory of the Roman empire. Perhaps if they waited until the barbarian kingdoms fo the Germans began to break up due to internal conflicts they might have succeeded.

I think that for the large part Europe without Christianity would have been much worse off. The religions which would have fluorished instead were much less humane, much less progressive, and much more warlike. The problem with Christianity in the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages was that as the Germans took over it assimilated Germanic ideals. It became too closely entwined with the Feudal rulers of Europe. It could be argued that there was a time when Europe needed Feudalism as a defense against invading hordes. Unfortunately, when conditions changed and the hordes were no longer a threat Christianity had a great deal of difficulty unentangling itself from the monarchs and aristocrats.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Zanarkand
That being said, I can't really picture Europe without christianity. It would definately be weirder, like Imran said. I don't think I would be very comfortable.

If Europe were ruled by Wotanists instead then if you were not able to wield a sword by age 9 you might have been scheduled for a post-natal abortion by your Daddy. As a childhood sufferer of asthma I definitely would have been less comfortable. Piercing with swords, dashing upon rocks or being wolf food makes me nauseous.

[Ecthy]

Are you implying it is a fundamentally Christina idea to support the weak in a group?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthy
Are you implying it is a fundamentally Christina idea to support the weak in a group?

You meant "Christian" didn't you?

Compared to Wotanism and Mithraism, yes. In Wotanism and Mithraism the best the weak can hope for is slavery. Under Germanic rule the best status the Church could get for the weak, i.e., the original peasents of the conquered lands of Europe, was serfdom. Without the Church they would have become outright slaves. Consider what the Saxons did to the Britons before becoming Christianized. Also consider that it was Christianization that ended the Viking scourge, not military might.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


I've never heard about this and it would contradict everything I learned about ancient and medieval slavery. And it's impossible to find information on a slavery ban. There were several Christian personalities advocating one's own labor as virtue and called for mitigation in slavery laws (which started under a pagan emperor: Hadrian), etc., but neither was there a consequent legislation nor a common Christian pressure on this issue.

I think I've found where I got the idea. Constantine decreed that non-Christians could not own Christians, and at the same time decreed that non-Christians could not interfere with any person's right to become a Christian. http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2006/08...l-of-rome.html

There were quite a number of prominent Christian opposed to slavery, such as St Chrystosom, bishop Pius, bishop Callistus, St. Melania, Pallidus, and St. Gregory of Nyassa. Christians were at least able to secure for slaves a measure of protection under the law and the right to make valid marrriages. Furthermore they advocated free manumission, instead of forcing the slaves to pay their market value in order to gain their freedom.