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LA struggling to change its DNA

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bosh


    Here's a zoom out of the area, massive swath of high rise apartments, but there's is a stretch of green along the river which is nice.

    Yikes. I hate suburbia with a passion, but that's just bleak existance defined.
    "The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
    "you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
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    • #32
      I live in the McGill student "ghetto." I'm thinking this is close to the ideal density. Mostly there's three storey townhouses, with a few apartment buildings tossed in. I have three supermarkets within 5 minutes walk. My classes are a similar distance away.

      There's trees every few feet along the streets (Really, why you'd have a non-tree lined street is beyond me.)
      "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
      -Joan Robinson

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Bosh

        One thing you're missing is the length of commutes that low density housing creates, if people spend a bit chunk of their time every day stuck in traffic jams in the freeway that's a lot of wasted man-hours right there.
        According to the Census, Los Angeles has an average commute time of some 29 minutes a day -- i.e., 14.5 minutes each way. Unless you're walking only a short distance to work, an urban setting even with excellent public transportation is much worse. I know that my walk to work is longer, for example.

        To emphasize the point, according to the Census, New York City (that wonder of high density) has the highest average commute time in the country -- 38 minutes, or more than 9 minutes longer than LA. On the other hand, Omaha (a mostly suburban city) has an average commute time of 17 minutes, or 12 minutes less than LA's.

        Come on guys, let's pick the thinking up a notch.
        Last edited by DanS; April 2, 2008, 14:22.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DanS


          According to the Census, Los Angeles has an average commute time of some 29 minutes a day -- i.e., 14.5 minutes each way.
          How I wish this were true.

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          • #35
            Just because you were suckered into a long commute doesn't mean everybody else was as well.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DanS


              According to the Census, Los Angeles has an average commute time of some 29 minutes a day -- i.e., 14.5 minutes each way. Unless you're walking only a short distance to work, an urban setting even with excellent public transportation is much worse. I know that my walk to work is longer, for example.

              To emphasize the point, according to the Census, New York City (that wonder of high density) has the highest average commute time in the country -- 38 minutes, or more than 9 minutes longer than LA.

              Come on guys, let's pick the thinking up a notch.
              My commute to school is <10 mins. That's why I do it multiple times per day

              The point isn't necessarily the average. In a highly scattered suburban setting, the minimum possible commute is probably higher, and harder to achieve than in an urban city.

              New York's average is probably massively increased by people living way out in the suburbs and driving in. My own commute last summer from Washington Heights (not exactly central) to Midtown was about 20-25 minutes (though in the morning I always stopped for breakfast along the way, so I can't really calculate). I suspect, had I been an actual employee and not an intern, I could have easily afforded to live only 10-15 mins away.
              "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
              -Joan Robinson

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              • #37
                Dan, have you ever spent a fair amount of time in LA or know people who live in LA? I have. Most people I know in LA buy houses where they can afford (often the inland empire or places like Ontario) and then commute to where their jobs are.
                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Oerdin
                  Dan, have you ever spent a fair amount of time in LA or know people who live in LA? I have. Most people I know in LA buy houses where they can afford (often the inland empire or places like Ontario) and then commute to where their jobs are.
                  I trust the Census more than I trust your anecdotal evidence. Sorry.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                  • #39
                    Don't you get it Dan? The census asks people LIVING in the city what their commute times are. I'm saying people are buying houses in other counties and commuting in because that's where the affordable housing is. I.E. the inland empire and Ventura county are now defacto suburbs of LA and have been for 25 years but the census doesn't count them because they don't live in the city.
                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Victor Galis
                      The point isn't necessarily the average. In a highly scattered suburban setting, the minimum possible commute is probably higher, and harder to achieve than in an urban city.
                      I would like to know how this is so. I live only a few blocks from work, yet the walk takes 15 minutes. I think I fit the definition of a minimum possible commute in an urban environment.
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                      • #41
                        Even if that commute time was for the whole metropolitan area (which I doubt), when we're talking about commute time, we're talking mostly about people who live in the suburbs and commute in to the city to work (and vice versa). I hardly think talking about the commute time for people who live in the city is useful when we are talking about a problem in the suburbs.
                        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Oerdin
                          Don't you get it Dan? The census asks people LIVING in the city what their commute times are. I'm saying people are buying houses in other counties and commuting in because that's where the affordable housing is. I.E. the inland empire and Ventura county are now defacto suburbs of LA and have been for 25 years but the census doesn't count them because they don't live in the city.
                          Those in Ventura County have a shorter commute than average for LA on the whole -- 25 minutes. Higher density equals longer commute times.

                          Now that we've disposed of another of your misconceptions...
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                          • #43
                            It's like talking to a wall. You point out how the census figure doesn't catch a real trend and he keeps quoting the same source.
                            Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                            • #44
                              He's giving numbers, you're giving personal opinion. I'll go with numbers until you provide same ...
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DanS


                                I would like to know how this is so. I live only a few blocks from work, yet the walk takes 15 minutes. I think I fit the definition of a minimum possible commute in an urban environment.
                                I live close enough to school, that parking a car and walking to the parking lot would take longer than my door to door commute. Driving a car involves certain overhead in terms of time.

                                Furthermore, consider how many apartments are within 15 mins of your current work, and how many houses there would be in a suburban setting within a 15 minute drive (factor in parking time). There should be more available residences in a 15 min radius in an urban setting. That makes it more likely that one of them is suitable for you and available.

                                Those in Ventura County have a shorter commute than average for LA on the whole -- 25 minutes. Higher density equals longer commute times.

                                Now that we've disposed of another of your misconceptions...
                                But the New York average was driven up by people living in Queens, the Bronx, and Brooklyn. (I don't know if people further out are included, though I knew people who took over an hour from Westchester Co.) The problem is that the people who are driving up the NY average are the people living in the suburbs. Just because NY has a real urban core doesn't mean it doesn't also have suburbs. NY also suffers from Manhattan being an island. There's a limited number of bridges/tunnels which form natural chokepoints.

                                He's giving numbers, you're giving personal opinion. I'll go with numbers until you provide same ...
                                The trouble with numbers is that they're useless unless you know what they're telling you. Showing the NY + suburbs has higher commute times just shows me that: hey, New York has suburbs too.
                                "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
                                -Joan Robinson

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