Kosovo to delcare independance tomorrow

[Harovan]

Sure it was "shredded" by other well known sources of the propaganda fog, mainly weil nicht sein kann was nicht sein darf. Germany again involved in a war of aggression? Mon dieu!

Of course, to state basically "dumb Nato, good Serbs" like the Tagesspiegel accused the WDR is silly. Equally sill is, however, "evil Serbs, good Albanians". Both sides are dripping with blood.

As I stated several times, I still think the airstrikes were not justified. However, once they happened anyway, they should have not sided with the UCK, but put the smackdown on both sides, as the Albanians are at least equally quilty. But as result, we have now an independent Gangster republic of Kosovo (an Albanian country with a Serbian name, a thing to behold), the UCK murderers are recognized as legal heads of state, and the Serbs lost their sacred lands.

[Harovan]

Oh and by the way, I didn't quote the WDR link to state that the Serbs are free of guilt (they are not), but because it displays that the back then invented buzzword "humanitarian disaster" was unjustified. A civil war is never pretty, of course, but this one wasn't any special.

[Cort Haus]

I can hardly bring myself to post in-depth on this subject, but I will say that the propaganda campaign to 'justify' the NATO aggression was the most spectacular exercise in mis-information it has ever been my misery to have witnessed. The WMD-in-Iraq canard was mild by comparison.

It no longer surprises me that so many buy into the "Evil Serbs" line which basically underpins the the widespread support for the Albanian side in Kosovo. It is hardly new, having been around since the Austrian Empire, and has been a theme during two world wars.

What I can never get over though, is how Madeleine Albright, whose life, as I understand it, was saved by Serbs in WW2, became a cheerleader of the old policies.

Sir Ralph

[Cort Haus]

I will also say that much of the 'credit' for the successes of the anti-Serbian policies of the last 15+ years lies with the PR company Ruder Finn, who were hired by all sides who opposed Serbia during the Yugoslav succession wars.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Sure it was "shredded" by other well known sources of the propaganda fog, mainly weil nicht sein kann was nicht sein darf. Germany again involved in a war of aggression? Mon dieu!

Well, that's exactly why I don't want to discuss it, because I just could call the Monitor guys part "of the propaganda fog" as well, just from the other direction. If media have an agenda, it's certainly not only the case for one side of the spectrum. In the end we would just get bogged down in a "debate" where everyone believes what he already likes to believe with sources that support exactly this, and nothing else. I did not say the WDR is all wrong, but I pointed to the fact that it has come under massive criticism afterwards. I don't think it's wise simply to ignore that, and take the Monitor stuff for the ultimate truth, despite others painting a different picture.

As I stated several times, I still think the airstrikes were not justified. However, once they happened anyway, they should have put the smackdown on both sides, as the Albanians are at least equally quilty. But as result, we have now an independent Gangster republic of Kosovo (an Albanian country with a Serbian name, a thing to behold), the UCK murderers are recognized as legal heads of state, and the Serbs lost their sacred lands.

And with Serbs going against embassies and border stations now we just label them all "criminals", "terrorists" etc. as well? Or if it's just about their state, how do we label Serbia in light of its actions? I find it a bit to easy to go from valid criticism against the UCK (I agree with Oerdin here) to such broad generalizations like gangster republic. Maybe Serbia should have treated the inhabitants of "their sacred lands" like equals long (several years) before the war, that could have really helped. Maybe it would also have an impact on the "gangster" aspect, because crime and political violence in a large scale come hardly out of the blue.

But whatever they *could* have done, the situation is as it is now, and I don't see any improvement in keeping the two parts together at all costs, when both people are extremely hostile to eachother. This would practically mean that someone has to force the Kosovars to stay with Serbia (which is exactly what Serbia already did), which is the only way to end the move for independance. This would be the best way into a new conflict. And one can hardly blame the Kosovars for rejecting just autonomy status after they experienced how they were stripped of what they had in this regard during the Milosevic years (and that started as well long before the war).

[Harovan]

Originally posted by BeBro
Well, that's exactly why I don't want to discuss it, because I just could call the Monitor guys part "of the propaganda fog" as well, just from the other direction. If media have an agenda, it's certainly not only the case for one side of the spectrum. In the end we would just get bogged down in a "debate" where everyone believes what he already likes to believe with sources that support exactly this, and nothing else. I did not say the WDR is all wrong, but I pointed to the fact that it has come under massive criticism afterwards. I don't think it's wise simply to ignore that, and take the Monitor stuff for the ultimate truth, despite others painting a different picture.

Sure there's not need to discuss it. Believe what you want, this is a free country, or so they say. I will continue to read between the lines and compare what all sides say. Did I mention that I watch Al-Jazeera sometimes too? Not because I think they are the ultima ratio, but because I don't want to believe what one side tries to indoctrinate.

And with Serbs going against embassies and border stations now we just label them all "criminals", "terrorists" etc. as well? Or if it's just about their state, how do we label Serbia in light of its actions?

I don't see yet what "Serbia" does, all I see is a bunch of Serbian hooligans demolishing stuff and having fights with the police. I'll tell you tomorrow what I think of the Serbian reaction, i.e. if they were arrested and the demolished things repaired. If not, I will be outraged, of course.

Or do you blame street fights of the left in Berlin and Hamburg, or heaven forbid, the actions of some neonazis on "Germany" too?

I find it a bit to easy to go from valid criticism against the UCK (I agree with Oerdin here) to such broad generalizations like gangster republic.

I don't know any republic of Kosovo. If it exists, it's only de-facto, not de-jure. What I know is the renegade Serbian province of Kosovo. What our silly government believes is of no interest for me.

And I will call a "country" led by the leaders of a terrorist organization a gangster republic at my leisure. As I mentioned, this is a free country, or so they say.

Maybe Serbia should have treated the inhabitants of "their sacred lands" like equals long (several years) before the war, that could have really helped. Maybe it would also have an impact on the "gangster" aspect, because crime and political violence in a large scale come hardly out of the blue.

Or may be the poor victims should not have trying to play the separatist and ethnic cleansing card themselves? As I said, both sides are dripping with blood. I don't excuse Serbia. I blame both.

But whatever they *could* have done, the situation is as it is now, and I don't see any improvement in keeping the two parts together at all costs, when both people are extremely hostile to eachother. This would practically mean that someone has to force the Kosovars to stay with Serbia (which is exactly what Serbia already did), which is the only way to end the move for independance. This would be the best way into a new conflict. And one can hardly blame the Kosovars for rejecting just autonomy status after they experienced how they were stripped of what they had in this regard during the Milosevic years (and that started as well long before the war).

I don't think it's over, far from it. We placed a brand new powder keg into the region, and the fuse was lighted last Sunday. Our soldiers will be there forever, and many billions of Euros will be wasted for no good.

[LordShiva]

BeBro

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Sure there's not need to discuss it. Believe what you want, this is a free country, or so they say. I will continue to read between the lines and compare what all sides say. Did I mention that I watch Al-Jazeera sometimes too? Not because I think they are the ultima ratio, but because I don't want to believe what one side tries to indoctrinate.

Watching all sides is certainly fine, which is why I pointed to the reactions to the WDR stuff. But I don't think it's wise to make a definate judgement on this when all we have is (at least) two extremely contrary views. All I could have said would be that *IF* the WDR is right, it would certainly confirm your pov. But the opposite works as well, *IF* there are major incorrect positions in there....the thing is we can't prove the WDR report by pointing to itself.

I don't see yet what "Serbia" does, all I see is a bunch of Serbian hooligans demolishing stuff and having fights with the police. I'll tell you tomorrow what I think of the Serbian reaction, i.e. if they were arrested and the demolished things repaired. If not, I will be outraged, of course.

Or do you blame street fights of the left in Berlin and Hamburg, or heaven forbid, the actions of some neonazis on "Germany" too?

It was actually my point that exactly this shouldn't be done.

I don't know any republic of Kosovo. If it exists, it's only de-facto, not de-jure. What I know is the renegade Serbian province of Kosovo. What our silly government believes is of no interest for me.

History is hardly waiting until everything is perfectly legal, and politics is more than hiding behind paragraphs. If that was all, you could argue about the legitimacy of many states today. And you can indeed, it's certainly possible, but my point is that it simply doesn't help much in an accute situation. Politics has to find practical answers, and just arguing about the legal side does not provide them when the actual dynamics "on the ground" develop completely different.

And I will call a "country" led by the leaders of a terrorist organization a gangster republic at my leisure. As I mentioned, this is a free country, or so they say.

If you wish so, it's certainly your good right, mine is however to post my opinion about it.

I don't think it's over, far from it. We placed a brand new powder keg into the region, and the fuse was lighted last Sunday. Our soldiers will be there forever, and many billions of Euros will be wasted for no good.

I don't know. OTOH the situation as it was before the war was hardly without costs in stability, money and authority of intl. institutions, not to mention the cost in lives in the area itself.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by BeBro
Watching all sides is certainly fine, which is why I pointed to the reactions to the WDR stuff. But I don't think it's wise to make a definate judgement on this when all we have is (at least) two extremely contrary views. All I could have said would be that *IF* the WDR is right, it would certainly confirm your pov. But the opposite works as well, *IF* there are major incorrect positions in there....the thing is we can't prove the WDR report by pointing to itself.

Well I may be biased, or wrong, or whatever, but no matter how they turn it by calling it humanitary action, military strike, airstrike or else, technically Germany was at war (against its own constitution by the way). And the mainstream press of a country at war lies, FACT. If you believe in a free independent Western press, you might be interested in the Berlin TV tower, I have it for sale really cheap. The mainstream press writes what politicians say in speeches and interviews. And politicians lie even if they don't fight wars. And if some brave journalist tries to write something different, well, the howling crowd of the propaganda machinery will tore it to pieces, see WDR.

That said, if somebody differs from the mainstream (a.k.a. propaganda fog) and what he writes sounds plausible, I'm inclined to put a bit more weight to his side of the story, especially when afterwards the howling crowd... etc.

I don't know. OTOH the situation as it was before the war was hardly without costs in stability, money and authority of intl. institutions, not to mention the cost in lives in the area itself.

A fair solution would have involved the Serbs too. But as I said, we have chosen a side in the conflict instead of remaining neutral. The Serbs are Russian allies and hence must be the evil guys by definition in the eyes of the West, that much is clear too.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DaShi
Crying?

It's too early to cry and it won't be me who will cry when the time come.

You Yanks are idiots, because you think you are above the law and can do whatever you wish.

And you, my dear Euros are even more stupid, because now there is a powder keg on your backyard. You are sitting on it and you brought it on yourselves, nobody else. You think Serbs will ever accept the idea that their core land, the place where their state started, their holy land, their heart, now is an "independent" state populated by Muslim allien foreigners who slaughter Christian Serbs at will, burn Christian churches, deficate at Christian icons, etc? They will never give up Kosovo, because it's THEIR CORE LAND, THE MOST IMPORTANT HISTORICAL PART OF THEIR COUNTRY.

Now you've made a precedent and every bunch of terrorist scum will shout out loud that they have the same right to be independent, just like Albanian terrorist scum in Kosovo.
The international law is dead now. And when it's dead there comes another law - the law of the jungle where the stronger is always right. And this always leads to a great bloodshed.

My congratrs to you, my dear western mofos - you'll see another Great War whithin your lifetime. And this will be the last day for the human civilization.

F. all of Y. and have a nice day, while you still can, idiots.

[Serb]

Sir Ralph

Ñïàñèáî, áðàò! Ïðèÿòíî âèäåòü, ÷òî â Åâðîïå åùå îñòàëèñü òðåçâûå ãîëîâû.

[Serb]

Another comment I have to make before I'll get my well-deserved ban.

Originally posted by Cort Haus

What I can never get over though, is how Madeleine Albright, whose life, as I understand it, was saved by Serbs in WW2, became a cheerleader of the old policies.

She is an old biatch who will burn in hell (on couple with Bill "Suck it deeper, Monica" Clinton).

Serbs shouldn't have save that old whore from the Nazis when she was a child.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

what kind of world war would it be if the Serbs did not start it

oh yes they only start the ones with odd numbers

even go to the Germans

[SlowwHand]

Let's see how the dreaded UN reacts now.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

UN is dead US killed it already in 2003