Worldwide pickets against Church of Scientology on the 10th / Project Chanology

[chequita guevara]

yes you did

[Alinestra Covelia]

...all right but I wasn't the only one.

Others who shall remain nameless but who may well have the username of famous Communists and/or the flags of famous island democracies formerly ruled by Nationalists were involved too.

[chequita guevara]

My name is similar to, not the same as, Ernesto "Che" Guevara.

[chequita guevara]

It depends on which side you listen to. I'm not all that willing to listen to stuff out of Taiwan, which is where the KMT established its dictatorship and spewed its lies. The Japanese records are more interesting, but the point of waging a guerrilla war isn't to engage in frontal combat.

Who fought the War of Resistance?

The question as to which political group directed the Chinese war effort and exerted most of the effort to resist the Japanese still remains a controversial issue.

In the Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japan Memorial near the Marco Polo Bridge and in mainland Chinese textbooks, the People's Republic of China claims that it was the Communist Party that directed Chinese efforts in the war and did everything to resist the Japanese invasion. Recently, however, with a change in the political climate, the CCP has admitted that certain Nationalist generals made important contributions in resisting the Japanese. The official history in mainland China is that the KMT fought a bloody, yet indecisive, frontal war against Japan, while it was the CCP that engaged the Japanese forces in far greater numbers behind enemy lines. This emphasis on the CCP's central role is partially reflected by the PRC's labeling of the war as the Chinese People's Anti-Japanese War of Resistance rather than merely the War of Resistance. According to the PRC official point of view, the Nationalists mostly avoided fighting the Japanese in order to preserve its strength for a final showdown with the Communists. However, for the sake of Chinese reunification and appeasing the ROC on Taiwan, the PRC has now "acknowledged" that the Nationalists and the Communists were "equal" contributors because the victory over Japan belonged to the Chinese people, rather than to any political party.

Leaving aside Nationalists sources, scholars researching third party Japanese and Soviet sources have documented quite a different view. Such studies claim that the Communists actually played a minuscule involvement in the war against the Japanese compared to the Nationalists and used guerrilla warfare as well as opium sales to preserve its strength for a final showdown with the Kuomintang.[8] This is congruent with the Nationalist viewpoint, as demonstrated by history textbooks published in Taiwan, which gives the KMT credit for the brunt of the fighting. According to these third-party scholars, the Communists were not the main participants in any of the 22 major battles, most involving more than 100,000 troops on both sides, between China and Japan. Soviet liaison to the Chinese Communists Peter Vladimirov documented that he never once found the Chinese Communists and Japanese engaged in battle during the period from 1942 to 1945. He also expressed frustration at not being allowed by the Chinese Communists to visit the frontline,[9] although as a foreign diplomat Vladimirov may have been overly optimistic to expect to be allowed to join Chinese guerrilla sorties. The Communists usually avoided open warfare (the Hundred Regiments Campaign and the Battle of Pingxingguan are notable exceptions), preferring to fight in small squads to harass the Japanese supply lines. In comparison, right from the beginning of the war the Nationalists committed their best troops (including the 36th, 87th, 88th divisions, the crack divisions of Chiang's Central Army) to defend Shanghai from the Japanese. The Japanese considered the Kuomintang rather than the Communists as their main enemy[10] and bombed the Nationalist wartime capital of Chongqing to the point that it was the most heavily bombed city in the world to date.[11] Also, the main bulk of Japanese forces were fighting mainly in Central and Southern China, away from major Communist strongholds such as those in Shaanxi.

[chequita guevara]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Fourth_Army_Incident

[DaShi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It depends on which side you listen to. I'm not all that willing to listen to stuff out of Taiwan, which is where the KMT established its dictatorship and spewed its lies. The Japanese records are more interesting, but the point of waging a guerrilla war isn't to engage in frontal combat.

Yet you are willing the believe the CCP who have been blatantly rewriting history rather than university scholars from a democratic country who based their results on actual records of the time? Che, there's only one word for that.

Who fought the War of Resistance?

The question as to which political group directed the Chinese war effort and exerted most of the effort to resist the Japanese still remains a controversial issue.

In the Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japan Memorial near the Marco Polo Bridge and in mainland Chinese textbooks, the People's Republic of China claims that it was the Communist Party that directed Chinese efforts in the war and did everything to resist the Japanese invasion. Recently, however, with a change in the political climate, the CCP has admitted that certain Nationalist generals made important contributions in resisting the Japanese. The official history in mainland China is that the KMT fought a bloody, yet indecisive, frontal war against Japan, while it was the CCP that engaged the Japanese forces in far greater numbers behind enemy lines. This emphasis on the CCP's central role is partially reflected by the PRC's labeling of the war as the Chinese People's Anti-Japanese War of Resistance rather than merely the War of Resistance. According to the PRC official point of view, the Nationalists mostly avoided fighting the Japanese in order to preserve its strength for a final showdown with the Communists. However, for the sake of Chinese reunification and appeasing the ROC on Taiwan, the PRC has now "acknowledged" that the Nationalists and the Communists were "equal" contributors because the victory over Japan belonged to the Chinese people, rather than to any political party.

Leaving aside Nationalists sources, scholars researching third party Japanese and Soviet sources have documented quite a different view. Such studies claim that the Communists actually played a minuscule involvement in the war against the Japanese compared to the Nationalists and used guerrilla warfare as well as opium sales to preserve its strength for a final showdown with the Kuomintang.[8] This is congruent with the Nationalist viewpoint, as demonstrated by history textbooks published in Taiwan, which gives the KMT credit for the brunt of the fighting. According to these third-party scholars, the Communists were not the main participants in any of the 22 major battles, most involving more than 100,000 troops on both sides, between China and Japan. Soviet liaison to the Chinese Communists Peter Vladimirov documented that he never once found the Chinese Communists and Japanese engaged in battle during the period from 1942 to 1945. He also expressed frustration at not being allowed by the Chinese Communists to visit the frontline,[9] although as a foreign diplomat Vladimirov may have been overly optimistic to expect to be allowed to join Chinese guerrilla sorties. The Communists usually avoided open warfare (the Hundred Regiments Campaign and the Battle of Pingxingguan are notable exceptions), preferring to fight in small squads to harass the Japanese supply lines. In comparison, right from the beginning of the war the Nationalists committed their best troops (including the 36th, 87th, 88th divisions, the crack divisions of Chiang's Central Army) to defend Shanghai from the Japanese. The Japanese considered the Kuomintang rather than the Communists as their main enemy[10] and bombed the Nationalist wartime capital of Chongqing to the point that it was the most heavily bombed city in the world to date.[11] Also, the main bulk of Japanese forces were fighting mainly in Central and Southern China, away from major Communist strongholds such as those in Shaanxi.

And this completely supports my claim that neither side gives your version of the story.

Now it is likely that the Red Army did fight against the Japanese using guerilla tactics. However, as said, it's hard to measure who you are fighting against in these cases. Given additional data, the Russian reports and where most of the fighting was occuring, it's hard to believe that the Red Army played a significant role in China's resistance to the Japanese invasion. The Nationalists, however, clearly were much more involved. Regardless of how they ran their government, they put more on the line resisting Japan than the Communists. To say different without stronger proof is blatant revisionism.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Fourth_Army_Incident

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[DaShi]

Was UR Che's DL?

1. Blind CCP devotion and hatred of their "enemies"

2. History revisionism.

3. Ignorance of China.

4. Non-sequiturs out the wahzoo

5. Quoting sources that contradict his own arguments.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DaShi


This has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

My issue was that that the KMT was attacking their allies during the war. I definitely overstated it, because I've been reading about China recently and that what I read.

Taiwan isn't all that democratic yet. It's kinda of democratic, moving towards democracy.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
...I didn't do it.

I did see your effort to steer things back on topic a little earlier. We'll overlook the subsequent relapse.


I think the Scientologists got Ari. He has been disappeared.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


My issue was that that the KMT was attacking their allies during the war. I definitely overstated it, because I've been reading about China recently and that what I read.

Bull****! "Also keep in mind that the Chinese Red Army was chiefly responsible for defeating Japan in China, as Chiang Kai-Shek was more interested in fight the Reds than the Japanese."

You claimed that the "Red Army was Red Army was chiefly responsible for defeating Japan in China," which there is no evidence of whatsoever.

Taiwan isn't all that democratic yet. It's kinda of democratic, moving towards democracy.

Please, an obvious strawman. Taiwan is far more democratic than the mainland. Not only does it allow multiple parties, but also independent research. You just don't like what they say, so you'd rather believe someone who tells you what you want to hear no matter how unscrupulous. This has nothing to do with the veracity of that article.

These are the pathetic tactics of a weak argument. You could have either admitted to your mistake or at least put on an honorable defense. But this is shameful.

[chequita guevara]

I admit I was wrong about the CCP not being the chief factor in the defeat of Japan in China.

However, I don't accept that just because a researcher lives in Taiwan, which was a dictatorship for almost half a century which slaughtered, from what I understand, close to 100,000 of its own people, and has only just, in the last decade, had something close to free elections, and where violence is still considered an acceptable way to deal with political opponents, that he should automatically be accepted as a valid source.

My sources weren't directly from the mainland. Keep in mind I'm not a Maoist. I've been reading about the Chinese Revolution and I repeated what I'd read.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Originally posted by Wezil
I did see your effort to steer things back on topic a little earlier. We'll overlook the subsequent relapse.


I think the Scientologists got Ari. He has been disappeared.

Oh, don't worry about me, I'm just happy you're keeping this thread on the front page. Keep up the good work!

I'm going to be posting a new thread regarding the protests to come on March 15th in a week or so. In the meantime, see what happened recently leading up to the Feb 10th protests (15 minute video), and see the effect the project has had so far.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I admit I was wrong about the CCP not being the chief factor in the defeat of Japan in China.

Don't feel bad. I doubt the KMT was the chief factor either.

Ultimately it all boils down to an incident in Hawaii and the entrance of a very large and angry country able to drop atomic bombs on Japan

[DaShi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I admit I was wrong about the CCP not being the chief factor in the defeat of Japan in China.

That's fine. We all make mistakes.

However, I don't accept that just because a researcher lives in Taiwan, which was a dictatorship for almost half a century which slaughtered, from what I understand, close to 100,000 of its own people, and has only just, in the last decade, had something close to free elections, and where violence is still considered an acceptable way to deal with political opponents, that he should automatically be accepted as a valid source.

Nor should it automatically be accepted as invalid. I'd trust a source taken from mainland China, if it was backed by actual records and verifiable testimony. Sure there could still be room for doubt, but be reasonable.

My sources weren't directly from the mainland. Keep in mind I'm not a Maoist. I've been reading about the Chinese Revolution and I repeated what I'd read.

Who knows what you're reading? All we know is that you're swallowing it whole without any critical thinking.