For Blair, Power trumps Money

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Arrian


You are, therefore, no democrat. The people are sometimes (often?) silly. Deal with it, or deal with the fact that you're an authoritarian.

-Arrian

I never said I was a democrat.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by C0ckney


what i'd like to know is if the EU (and the direction it's going in) is such a good thing, then why won't our dear leaders make the case for it and tell us ignorant plebs why we should be voting for it?

instead we are told not to worry our pretty heads, it might be unpopular but it's for our own good, so we should just sit down, shut up and take it. even worse, some people actually buy into this.

They are doing that all the time, but you've already made your mind up and aren't listening.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MarkG
Brits should join the euro before there is any talk of one of them getting such a high-profile job

Why? They seem to be doing fine without it. Why should the be burdened with your currency to rule over you?

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by MikeH
They are doing that all the time, but you've already made your mind up and aren't listening.

errr....how exactly are they doing that, seeing as how we're not getting the vote we were promised. if you mean making the case for EU, they're clearly not making it very well considering that the majority in this country are euro-sceptics.

you seem to be one of the people i was referring to in my second paragraph.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
I never said I was a democrat.

you have much in common with the EU leaders.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
I never said I was a democrat.

Evidently not, which is why you support such a profoundly anti-democratic institution.

[BeBMan]

That's a bit too simple to me. The EU wouldn't be there today without democratically elected leaders making decisions for it repeatedly (and the fact that they were eleceted democratically gives them usually the legitimacy to do this). I can't think of a EU member country which favours a perfect direct democracy where everything is decided by "the people". We usually have representative democracies (for good reasons btw) and this means we give away a mandate to make certain decisions for a certain time. If we don't like it, we elect someone else. So if you Brits don't want to be in the EU then elect someone who gets you out. If you want a referendum it's all great too in my eyes, but if you don't get one it's certainly not a EU problem.

And Cort, really, 4th Reich is nonsense. We don't see people get thrown into camps all over Europe right now.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by MikeH
They are doing that all the time, but you've already made your mind up and aren't listening.

Who isn't listening? What part of the word 'non' do the EU autocrats not understand? Why has Brown reneged on his promise to hold a referendum? Why did the EU leadership brow-beat the Irish into repeat votes a few years ago until they got the answer they wanted?

It's erroneous to equate all opposition to the EU as being anti-european. The EU bureaucracy is the antithesis of western democratic values, with a contempt for elections and referendums which is mirrored by some of the autocratic dismissers of democracy (and ordinary people) on this thread.

[C0ckney]

cort, very well put

bebro, the labour party in its 2005 manifesto, upon which it was elected, promised a referendum on the EU constitution, as in fact did all the parties. now they are trying to wriggle out of it, by claiming this new treaty is completely different and we don't need a vote. if that's not anti-democratic, then i don't know what is. a similarly shabby con-trick is being played on french and dutch voters who rejected the constitution in 2005.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

It's erroneous to equate all opposition to the EU as being anti-european.

It is as erroneous as qualifying everything or everyone pro EU as non-democratic, or even doing a Godwin which is frankly also quite insulting.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Heraclitus


I never said I was a democrat.

Ah, ok, you're fine with being undemocratic, then. At least you're not in denial.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
or even doing a Godwin which is frankly also quite insulting.

He sees an overly powerful organization being shoved down the throats of an unwilling populace. What else would one be able to assume other than contempt for the democratic process in the way it is being formed?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
He sees an overly powerful organization being shoved down the throats of an unwilling populace.

You guys certainly had a referendum before invading Iraq?

[DinoDoc]

We had a referendum before creating the US. All States got to vote as well. Perhaps you could learn from our history.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by BeBro


You guys certainly had a referendum before invading Iraq?

1. Bad analogy.

2. Unfortunately, such a referendum would've passed, easily.

-Arrian