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Originally posted by DinoDoc
We had a referendum before creating the US. All States got to vote as well. Perhaps you could learn from our history.
Bad comparison. The USA of the 1790's and 1800's was not a democracy in the modern sense of the word.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
@ Hera: If a democracy of the 1790's and 1800's could swing a referendum on the future course of the States, it seems like an incredible indictment of the EU that its States can't manage the same feat.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
Originally posted by DinoDoc
@ Hera: If a democracy of the 1790's and 1800's could swing a referendum on the future course of the States, it seems like an incredible indictment of the EU that its States can't manage the same feat.
Off course it could, and it would fail, and a century or so later half of western civlization is dead (and the US part is dying too). Happy?
Local politicans blame the EU for almost everything. They make the EU out to be some unstoppable goliath, when its in fact very very fragile. They bash it but offer no alternative? Have you ever heard a EU-basher on poly offer a real altrenative?
And anyhow didn't most of the nations hold referendums before they joined? IF the Brits didn't they should leave the EU, the free trade zone. Wait a decade and have a referndum then.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
Originally posted by DinoDoc
@ Hera: If a democracy of the 1790's and 1800's could swing a referendum on the future course of the States, it seems like an incredible indictment of the EU that its States can't manage the same feat.
BTW It wasn't a real referendum, since no natives, no slaves, no women could vote.
I mean, I can say the at least the slaves would have been better off as part of the British empire. And even more the US had a unified culture, no previous state existed there, it was a seccesion not a unfication of existing states.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
Originally posted by Heraclitus
Local politicans blame the EU for almost everything. They make the EU out to be some unstoppable goliath, when its in fact very very fragile. They bash it but offer no alternative? Have you ever heard a EU-basher on poly offer a real altrenative?
Democracy, representation and accountability would seem to be a good starting point for an alternative. For those interested in such concepts.
maybe in your little country. we've had stability and democracy for a very long time.
Oh yes stabilit and democracy are assured in the entire western world.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
Democracy, representation and accountability would seem to be a good starting point for an alternative. For those interested in such concepts.
And a viable alternative to the justice system is brotherly love.
Ok, try to explain what you mean by democracy, then what do you mean by representation. And then what by accountability. And THEN I'll post a response.
Last edited by Heraclitus; February 5, 2008, 17:51.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
The fate of Western Civilization rests on the EU? News to me...
-Arrian
Not on the EU per se, but on a permanent system of cooperation between European countries. Our old civilizational model has been exhausted, faced by dismal birth rates and lack of social cohesiveness, we couldn’t return to it even if we wanted to. European states either cooperate or they become susceptible to pressure by the emerging powers. This coupled with a large immigrant population eventually equates a lose of cultural identity.
Now you can not deny that the West is clearly exhibiting signs of a declining civilization. The US slightly less than Europe, but you are no more than a century or two better off.
-H
Last edited by Heraclitus; February 5, 2008, 18:00.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
h, your views on this subject are nothing more than alarmist rubbish. our civilization is in decline, we're being overrun, we're losing our identites etc.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
And a viable alternative to the justice system is brotherly love.
Ok, try to explain what you mean by democracy, then what do you mean by representation. And then what by accountability. And THEN I'll post a response.
If the poor analogy in your previous response is anything to go by, then a detailed explaination of the fairly fundamental concepts above would be a waste of time. The clue, though, lies in the permanent and unelected nature of the presidential role that Blair seeks. People who are democratically elected represent those who voted for them and are accountable to the electorate. It might not be perfect, but that's what democracy is.
One of the problems of the EU is that politicians like Neil Kinnock, who failed dismally as a party leader in the UK by losing an election against a tired and deeply unpopular opponent, could go on to enjoy unelected power as a senior EU bureaucrat.
My objections to the EU are about the mechanisms, not the internationalist principles and ideals behind it. If the mechanisms do not work, we are better off maintaining certain levels of sovereignty.
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