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I already posted about the referendum. If they were promised one, but didn't get it, it is still first a domestic problem of their own gov, not one of the EU.
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No more than some national ones, and thus far the EU has infact helped spread democracy. In most cases it was an improvemnt, though I would prefer a good meritocracy or a technocracy.Originally posted by Cort Haus
Evidently not, which is why you support such a profoundly anti-democratic institution.
BTW Something being (un)democratic in theory does not make it (un)democratic in practice. I thought a Brit would understand that.
and with national leaders. Your point?Originally posted by C0ckney
you have much in common with the EU leaders.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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Originally posted by BeBro
That's a bit too simple to me. The EU wouldn't be there today without democratically elected leaders making decisions for it repeatedly (and the fact that they were eleceted democratically gives them usually the legitimacy to do this). I can't think of a EU member country which favours a perfect direct democracy where everything is decided by "the people". We usually have representative democracies (for good reasons btw) and this means we give away a mandate to make certain decisions for a certain time. If we don't like it, we elect someone else. So if you Brits don't want to be in the EU then elect someone who gets you out. If you want a referendum it's all great too in my eyes, but if you don't get one it's certainly not a EU problem.
And Cort, really, 4th Reich is nonsense. We don't see people get thrown into camps all over Europe right now.
Voice of reason IMHOModern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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QFTOriginally posted by BeBro
It is as erroneous as qualifying everything or everyone pro EU as non-democratic, or even doing a Godwin which is frankly also quite insulting.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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Originally posted by Arrian
Ah, ok, you're fine with being undemocratic, then. At least you're not in denial.
-Arrian
I never said I wasn't! People like to jump to conclusions.
I would support any form of goverment that gave me free speech, respected my human rights, had pro-technology policies, universal health care and good schools.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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I do find it amusing how Brits over-estimate the power of the EU. It's in fact a very fragile thing, as is the longterm stability and democratic nature of Europe.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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If you understood Britain's history, I think you would understand their PoV better. They've been wary of the continent since, oh, about forever.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Originally posted by Arrian
If you understood Britain's history, I think you would understand their PoV better. They've been wary of the continent since, oh, about forever.
-Arrian
"splendid isolation" right?
I understand history and tradition, I understand they wan't to preserve their national identity. But come on! Britain isn't an emprie, and it never will be again!
They can be one of 27,one of 52, or a new Switzerland its their call... but they should make a decision quick.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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I don't think it has anything to do with Empire, Heraclitus.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Well, just to make that clear, I personally have no prob with people making criticism towards the EU, in fact I usually share some (not all) of it. There are indeed massive problems in the EU, that is no secret. I also don't see a prob if people don't like the EU at all and don't want to be part of it, that's their business, and I'm not there to tell them what to think.Originally posted by Arrian
If you understood Britain's history, I think you would understand their PoV better. They've been wary of the continent since, oh, about forever.
-Arrian
However, in this thread I had more the feeling that the EU as it is today is just a result of some evil plot, and only true evildoers could see something positive in it.BlahComment
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Fair enough. There was no need for the Nazi comparison. That was really out of left field.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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Why? I think it does very much so.Originally posted by Arrian
I don't think it has anything to do with Empire, Heraclitus.
-Arrian
I mean in real life no one comlapis about democracy if they are doing all right. Look at Russians, they feel they have got their "rightfull place" back and just love Happy Putin for it.
Brits are frustrated by their insignificance, their social and economic problems, immigration, ect.
much of this is the result of a colonial legacy... Couple these issues with traditional anti-continental feelings and it's a wonder locals don't blame the EU for bad weather and the invasion of Iraq.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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I thought the record was pretty clear that people start to complain a lot about democracy once they start experiencing some stability and prosperity. Expectations rise. The people get uppity. The goddamned Petite bourgeoisie start thinking they have rights, and then it's nothing but work, work, work all the time...I mean in real life no one comlapis about democracy if they are doing all right.
Those w/o stability & prosperity seem to be the ones who don't necessarily care about abstract concepts like democracy. When you're worried you could be shot or starve on a daily basis, who the **** cares about voting?
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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I phrased that akwardly, you are right about what you are saying, that's basic sociology.Originally posted by Arrian
I thought the record was pretty clear that people start to complain a lot about democracy once they start experiencing some stability and prosperity. Expectations rise. The people get uppity. The goddamned Petite bourgeoisie start thinking they have rights, and then it's nothing but work, work, work all the time...
Those w/o stability & prosperity seem to be the ones who don't necessarily care about abstract concepts like democracy. When you're worried you could be shot or starve on a daily basis, who the **** cares about voting?
-Arrian
I meant:
Doing all right= seeing progress
Example: Germany in the 1930's
China todayLast edited by Heraclitus; February 5, 2008, 14:05.Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez DávilaComment
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