935 Lies

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm not really sure that the Iraq has WMD memo was a lie perpetuated by the Bush admin at least given the fact it preceded thier time in office. You can hang it on the incompetents at the CIA though probably the Church Committee and the limits it placed on the use of human intelligence as well.

I wouldn't, since the CIA's information was dubious at best, and they said so. In fact, the CIA was leaking all over the place telling anyone who would listen how bad the information they had (pointing to Iraq holding significant stockpiles of WMDs as well as active programs) was and how they had significantly better information saying the opposite. The problem was less the CIA and more the Office of Special Planning, which didn't vet any information which came its way. The main problem at the CIA was at the top, with an official who was a sycophant rather than doing his job to stand up to the president and tell him he was wrong.

The intelligence failure was the President's.

Nor would the Church Committee be at fault, since neither FISA nor the FIC hampered the ability of the CIA to gather information, especially since the FIC turned down only three requests before the invasion of Iraq. Given they're something of a rubber stamp, those three had to be really reaching. You'd be more accurate blaming Carter, who ended up sacking a lot of the Black Ops types, or Reagan, who purged any "left"-leaning types from the CIA, or Clinton, who became enamored of technological surveillance. The Church Committee, however, did its job in providing valuable oversight over an out of control organization with the blood of millions on its hands and reporting that information to the American people.

[MikeH]

It's funny how a lot of us knew this in 2001/2002 and some people still have their heads in the sand.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Nor would the Church Committee be at fault, since neither FISA nor the FIC hampered the ability of the CIA to gather information, especially since the FIC turned down only three requests before the invasion of Iraq.

Why are you talking about a an act and court that deals with physical and electronic searches and taps in US territory when I'm talking about the destruction of the CIA's ability and desire to gather Human intelligence outside of US territory?

[Patroklos]

When did being wrong = lie?

[dannubis]

deliberately wrong = lie

[Patroklos]

deliberately wrong = lie

Ohhhhh...

So in other words, a lie in your opinion.

[dannubis]

yes, and that of... oohhhh 75 % of the world population ?

[MikeH]

Deliberately wrong implies that they knew they were wrong, so therefore it's a lie.

You can't say that is only a lie in someones opinion. They manipulated the intelligence data, both in the UK and the US to make the case for war and it was all bull****.

[Elok]

I'm not sure that "lie" is exactly the right word for cases where the objective truth or falsehood of the statement in question is completely alien and irrelevant to the speaker's POV. Which seemed to be the case. It seemed W "knew" in his gut that Iraq was a threat, and so any intelligence which did not fit that knowledge was a dangerous distraction and a threat to security. It didn't look like a conscious decision so much as an automatic, selective rejection of reality.

[Arrian]

They played fast and loose with dubious info they, IMO, knew was dubious, in order to garner support for an operation they wanted to go ahead with (invasion). That's bad enough, even if it isn't a "lying." Oh, it's only spinning that's much better! Add in the incompetance displayed in the first year or two of occupation, and I'm supposed to cut these *******s any slack whatsoever... why?

-Arrian

[Elok]

Actually, I'm saying that what W did was worse than lying. At least a liar knows he's full of crap.

[Patroklos]

You can't say that is only a lie in someones opinion. They manipulated the intelligence data, both in the UK and the US to make the case for war and it was all bull****.

Again, when this is proven instead of disproven then you have a point to stand on.

If the tread simply said Bush was wrong 935 times, I would be in full agreement.

[DinoDoc]

BDS?

[Arrian]

Elok - my post wasn't aimed at you.

And I think I agree wrt to Bush himself: he literally doesn't see things that contradict his beliefs. This is something all people do to a certain degree, but appears to be one of his core personality traits...

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

Girls do that to me at the bar all the time. They want me to be into them, so the take the slightest chance of a show of intrest from me as concrete evidence of interest.

Or is it visa versa?

Either way, it is not a lie.